Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes • Hacker News Board

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#91

Post by billmalarky » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:54 PM UTC

kemiller2002 wrote: post #42

virgilp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While undoubtedly true, I'm speculating this can in fact be translated to money. You've turned down 50k$/y, say. Would you have turned down an extra 100k? 200k? 500k? I bet at some point you would've said "fuck it, yes I'll take the job despite conditions". But yes, eventually it's just cheaper to create the better working conditions than to pay everybody the extra money :)

For some people you are correct. They will not turn down more money. After a certain point in your career you realize that money does not buy happiness, and it certainly does not buy you more time. As people get older and have families etc., people begin to realize that going home at a reasonable hour is much more important than extra money.

>money does not buy happiness,

True. Once a certain threshold is met.

> and it certainly does not buy you more time

False. Money buys a lot of time. An extra $XX,000 a year invested will have you living off your capital instead of work after Y years. The moment you go from working for someone else to being supported by your wealth you just bought 50% of your waking life back.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#92

Post by notyourday » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #84

notyourday wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's how it works in finance. You are hired to do a job. For boat load of money. When that job is done, you are fired. And no one cares because working 3 years for guaranteed $800k/year + $500k bonus that you will probably get is worth being fired on a 3 year + 1 day anniversary.

Serious question, how many people in finance really make $3.6+ million in just a few years then retire? Honestly that's enough to pay off every cent of debt for both my wife and I, and then pull off over $100k/yr for the rest of our lives. Give me $3.6 million today and I will never touch an office door for the rest of my life.

Devs? Not a lot. Senior devs that are basically tech leads + PMs for projects with a visible termination point? All the time.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#93

Post by itgoon » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #30

Here's what most companies want: >> We only hire "passionate" engineers who have proven themselves to be "rock stars" and we call them "family" so that they can "take one for the team" and forgo a "raise" because we didn't meet our quarter. But we did make enough to give ourselves "bonuses!" I am motivated by money because every company I work for is motivated by money. They want theirs, I want mine. I factor into my…

Exactly. I've worked for a couple of charities at a discount, because I was working with people who wanted to help others, and it showed. Nobody was raking in the big bucks.

If I was offered a position somewhere that actively took "hits" for their customers and/or employees, I might stick around. As it is, everyone above me is looking for a payday, and paying me less makes theirs better.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#94

Post by metafunctor » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #2

So. Much. B.S. There is only one thing that people who have not been dropped on a head interested in. It is called money . Money buys them stuff. Money lets them have a nice roof over their head. Money lets their family not worry about a slum in the economy. Everything else is secondary. Here's a magic formula: MaxMoney(Min(work)) 402 "PAY_ME_MORE_MONEY" P.S. That's why it is called a job and not hobby or volunteerin…

I've turned down jobs that would have paid a LOT more than I made at the time, because I thought the hiring people were assholes (in the finance sector, no less). Based on your other comments here, I think they were probably much like you.

There's more to it than money. Maybe some day you'll figure it out.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#95

Post by notyourday » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #79

notyourday wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not true for everyone. I've taken $20k less salary to work on technologies that were more interesting. Money is just one dimension and one can be strategic about it. They either dropped you on a head or you are that young and naive person FRC needs.

Your desire to insult falls flat because it was my young and naive 20s when I was at my peak powers of being a mercenary and prostitute for money. Prioritizing money above all else was wrong for me -- but I'm not saying it's wrong for others.

Its not an insult. I will give it another 10 years. You will change your opinion.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#96

Post by Jemmeh » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

dmitrygr wrote: post #47

pm215 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so how do I buy a 3-day working week with my extra salary?

You can. Yes. Go to your boss. Ask to be paid 60% of your current salary to work M-W. I'm sure you'll get a yes.

Haha the length of time to complete projects would go through the roof, so that would never work here.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#97

Post by saosebastiao » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #45

saosebastiao wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you’ve said though is that your personal marginal value of working on an interesting problem is worth more than 25k, but you haven’t stated where that ends. What if the offer was 100k more? 250k more? I hated working for Amazon more than any other job. But I’d do it again for double my previous salary. And that’s why the suggestion matters: nobody is going to change their job requirements to recruit more candidat…

>an interesting problem is worth more than 25k, but you haven’t stated where that ends. It doesn't matter where it ends in the context of the reply to notyourday 's assertion that only _one_ thing matters to non-mentally impaired people and that is _money_. >I hated working for Amazon more than any other job. But I’d do it again for double my previous salary. Totally understandable and that's why I began my comment t…

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but I'm not disagreeing with notyourday either (except for the idea that if you're interested in anything other than money that you've been dropped on your head, but I read that as hyperbole to make a point). I guess I should have said you're talking past each other.

From the perspective of the recruiter, you can't change the problems you are working on and hiring for, you have little to no control over company culture, location, or any other factor. You can really only pay more money. Sure, you could change working conditions or benefits, but that is just a redirection of money...it's still more money.

From the perspective of the developer, lots of things matter. Money absolutely matters, but so do working conditions, benefits, quality of life, technology, tooling, location, commute options, and on and on. Your position is obvious...but how much control does the recruiter have over all of this? Almost none. If they are having trouble hiring, they need to pay more, full stop.

That means that Space X has a lot of leeway to negotiate on price, whereas SalesForce may be a lot more constrained. SalesForce can't make their business more exciting and enticing, their hand has been forced.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#98

Post by sk5t » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

dmitrygr wrote: post #58

“At a certain point, I’m very explicit: ‘Look, I think 5X is Absolutely conservative given how we’re growing No. 0X is conservative. It's a startup. Most of those make non-founders $0.00 on equity

Indeed. If 5x were conservative, at series C or any other point, one would be fending off investors with a stick, failing to justify 409a valuations, etc., etc.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#99

Post by BeetleB » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #67

jcadam wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play. Off the top of my head: 1) Respect. By that I mean professional respect - I want to feel that my contributions are valued and that people recognize my talents :) 2) Team. Working with dirtbags is miserable no matter how much you get…

Let me be a Certified Finance Asshat to demonstrate that you are externalizing money: I will give you $35k/year for 40 hours a week total compensation and you get all the other 4. Why aren't you taking this job? The reason is because you know that it is a laughable salary. FRC has an agenda. Its agenda is convince naive people to go work for their startups ( and other startups ) for Magic and Unicorns, rather than $$…

You're being downvoted because you ignored this:

>Money is important, but past a certain point (when you are able to live comfortably and are no longer feeling stressed about your personal/family finances), other factors come into play.

It's difficult to counter his comment when you don't address it and give an obviously low salary.

Re: Make Stronger Offers to Engineering Candidates and Boost Your Closes

#100

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 11, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #65

jcadam wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, but nobody is going to offer me a job and say "It sucks to work here, the people suck, the conditions are stressful, and the hours are long. In fact - if you join us, I'm going to hire someone whose sole job will be to kick you in the marbles every morning when you walk in the building. You say you earn $X at your current job in which you are content? How does $X*5 sound?" I…

My impression is that a lot of coding jobs in finance are like that - the offices are ugly, the business people more chaotic and sociopath than in other industries, the working conditions poor (terrible tools, security tying your hands etc.), the mission uninspiring - but they pay top market rates to compensate for that.

[deleted]