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Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

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Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#151
post #98

There’s a thing between being entrepeneurship and working for a company: freelancing. It’s for those that feel no attachment to a company, but do have a very developed skill set or trade. In our free market economy, there will always be a system where someone hires you to create value, which costs less than it makes them, in the end. If you want a bigger slice of that pie, you need to make it a viable business case.…

Egads! I'm so ready to do this. I'm in my late 30s and have been a salaried engineer my entire career. I'm sick of corporate culture and dealing with dysfunctional petty politics. My current environment is particularly depressing. You know the office from the first part of Joe vs the Volcano ? It's kind of like that :| I'll admit, there's an element of risk aversion holding me back. That and I simply can't afford to…

As another data point, I'm about the same age, live in Idaho and freelanced around 2012 charging about $30-40 per hour and taking anything I could get on Elance/oDesk (now Upwork). I flipped PowerPC iMacs with the blown capacitor issue, took a local service call once or twice a month, and worked on shareware. I eventually went broke, but I landed a $50/hr, 6 month contract in a local office at the end doing backend web work.

I managed to save about $20,000 and freelanced the same way the next year or so, but charging $50/hr. Money steadily dropped, but it was mostly due to taking fixed-bid contracts, not tracking my time well, estimating done dates and then failing to bill after the deadline. So try not to give time estimates (which are often by by a factor of 3-10 or more), and if you do, be sure to bill if you go over. They are paying for the time it takes you to solve a problem, not your ability to guess at unknowns that can't be known until you've done them.

After that, I got a great gig at a local agency. If I find myself being a contractor again, I would charge 1.5-2x my desired hourly pay. In internet tech now, that's probably $75-150k/yr, $35-75/hr, even in rural areas, so a $75/hr freelance rate is probably a good minimum.

In other words, there's not an easy way that I could see to survive long as a contractor by taking a pay cut from your current salary. It's better to think in terms of charging twice as much as you're paid now, but finding work half as often. Which is generally worth it because it gives you time to work on your skills, do side projects, etc. I would not take other advice to moonlight, because a programming job by itself generally tends towards burnout.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compare global poverty (especially in developing economies) today to 50 years ago and tell me again about the dystopia the average human is living in because of capitalism. If I was going to be reborn in a random country, I’d sure rather it be in 2017 than 1967, and I feel optimistic that 2067 will be much better still.

Sure here's the comparison data: http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-sta... And my favorite part: "For economic growth and almost all of the other indicators, the last 20 years [of the current form of globalization, from 1980 - 2000] have shown a very clear decline in progress as compared with the previous two decades [1960 - 1980]. For each indicator, countries were divided into five roughly equ…

Large amounts of global inequality are because, to the very recent times, most of the people in the world lived under communism, which kept them in poverty (often extreme). The rest of the world was lucky to enjoy massive increase of standards of living thanks to capitalism, which created a chasm. Only now, as capitalism has spread to most countries, the global inequality is decreasing (see ex. increasing wages in China and stagnant wages in US).

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#153
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value provided to my employer is more or less known: they sell my time for about 5x what they pay me (software consultancy). The stress is over issues that the client is pressuring us to solve before a deadline, that usually requires overtime. I always refuse to do overtime, and try to work less rather than more. This creates a situation where my colleagues resent me because it feels like I'm not doing my share since…

Wow, 5X! I have a small consultancy and most engineers are surprised to learn that 2X is typical. I do know some of the large management consulting firms have very high margins, especially on junior programmers, which you're clearly not. Specialist knowledge will also raise rates. But I suspect they have high churn with abuse like that. Do they have an awesome sales/marketing team, or are those rates typical for your…

I'm far from an expert, I'd say intermediate. There are people I work with who know far more than I do.

The company specializes in a couple of frameworks so yes they sell expertise in that sense, and they've done a lot of work developing the brand.

But yes, there are more jobs than people to fill them, which is pretty much any software development job that isn't gaming related or movie related. My company always has open software dev positions and they can't fill them fast enough despite being very well known in the industry.

What domain is your consultancy in?

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#154
post #118
post #37

You make yourself unhappy by focusing on what your boss or company owners are doing. Don't think about them, they are external to you. Focus on what you want or like to do. You can try starting a consultancy business. Start as a freelance and grow that. Anything you do you must work hard and create value for others. If you do this consistently you will eventually move into a position where you are comfortable. The be…

That's the thing though: how do you start? Where do you find clients? I obviously can't go after any of my current employer's clients, I don't have friends who studied CS and work at prestigious companies... How do you get started?

Identify who would need your service, learn and do sales. Make sure you believe you have a great service. If not identify your greatest skill and improve it. Books are generally great. Here is a great sales book: https://www.amazon.com/SPIN-Selling-Neil-Rackham/dp/00705111...

If doing sales sounds tough, it will start tough and then get easier. If people ignore you just keep going.

Build something for someone for free (assuming you are in a programming or similar field).

When selling the most important part is the immediate benefit you are providing - will you reduce your customer's cost, improve their sales, solve some problem they spend too much time?

RE: how do you find clients? What field are you in? Who would need your service? Identify 1000 potential buyers and contact them. Contact them by email, phone, use forums, go to conferences, talk to people one on one. Introduce your benefit to them.. Make sure you contact people who seem to have budget and good things going on. Build a website on wordpress that describes your service. Hang out in places where your audience might be.

There is a lot to talk about but most importantly you "do" something consistently, improve it and keep going if you get Nos. If you stop doing you will never get there, and if you keep doing you will definitely get somewhere good, then great.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey! To you and Amiuba. I did get started into freelancing slowly. I had money saved when I quit my job and I took things slowly. I don't use freelancing websites. For marketing I use conferences, user-conferences and open-source. I am still in a good relationship with my last employer and I do freelance work for them too. Wrt the coop, one of my motivations is this Spanish open-source coop which has been running for…

Hey, I'm a freelance developer based in Montreal, Canada who is also incredibly interested in building out a freelancer/webdev co-op. Would love to hear more about your ideas and what direction you're interested in taking it :) Also, any tips on how to find clients at conferences? I've been to a few but never seem to meet anyone who's actually searching for a vendor. Most of my clients have come through my extended f…

Hi Eric!

W.r.t. the co-op, at the moment my ideas (or fantasies) are more about organizational stuff than the content (what we would work on). I am just gathering ideas, learning and keeping my eyes open waiting for all this to crystalize...

My motivation is to be able to work with other people in a democratic and (internally) non-capitalistic way. You are still playing in the market so there are lots of contradictions that you would have to assume, but I think there is a lot of progress one can make nontheless. For me Igalia, as I mentioned, is a source of inspiration because they have been going for quite a while and they are about ~50 people now and have a good business. They are also very democratic and flat (e.g. everyone has equal pay, something shocking but with very good rationale). They also do excellent technical work---for example, they have been the ones implementing a lot of ES6 features inside V8 and SpiderMonkey. If you want to read about them, Andy Wingo (the person I know from there) has 3-post series on the topic here: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/06/05/no-master

On a more political side, recently I read the Telekommunisten manifesto which also touches on cooperative models as a way to do social change for real: http://telekommunisten.net/the-telekommunist-manifesto/

In my student times I was very much into activism, but since I started working I stopped "having time" for it. I was also burned out from the energy and emotional sink that activism can be. I've realized with time that the workplace though has not managed to make me more conservative, if anything, it has made me more concerned about the issues of exploitation and alienation---even in "well-off" industries where workers often feel privileged just because of the (relatively) high salaries. My current thinking is that separating work and politics is one of the things that leads to activism and work burn-out and that, if anything, I should use the privilege of being an engineer to try build a democratic workspace for myself and hopefully others too. In the best scenario it could be an example and do some little good for the world, in the worst case I would have tried and learnt something about how the world works.

W.r.t. finding clients at conferences, I am really no expert, I have actually been freelancing less time than you :-) I don't consider myself an extrovert. What has worked for me so far is doing talks about open-source projects. Last summer, for example, I worked with a client that just watched the video of one of my talks and contacted me. Last week I talked with a new potential client that just some comment on Hackernews where I talked about some of that work. Doing open-source work and talking about it is very time-consuming, so it is not a silver-bullet for sure, but something worth trying if that scratches some itch of yours.

I still feel that I have lots to learn and am making lots of mistakes, but I guess this takes time... :-)

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#156
post #109
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with this, it's really only easy to recognize this after you've figured it out. I also want to emphasize I'm in a position now with equity do not adhere to the philosophy below. Focus on enjoying the people you work with and spend less energy thinking about your work. Stressing over work is a fool's game unless you have skin in it. I had a pretty low point in my career and I simply changed my focus to c…

> changed my focus to collecting as much money from the wealthy bosses as I could while providing as little value as I could. I thought about this and tried it this past year. It didn't go well and my performance review was abysmal. Some of my colleagues hate my guts because they feel like they're doing all the work and I'm not. For example, I never do overtime especially when it's to meet unrealistic arbitrary deadl…

> changed my focus to collecting as much money from the wealthy bosses as I could while providing as little value as I could.

This sounds like a bad idea. I always try to collect as much money as I can while providing a fair amount of value. You'll probably end up shooting yourself in the foot if you're providing little value to a company.

> It didn't go well and my performance review was abysmal. Some of my colleagues hate my guts because they feel like they're doing all the work and I'm not.

If you're going to do this, you are going to need to own it and not be concerned that sheep are going to hate you for not being a sheep.

Also understand that the company is never going to choose a non-sheep over a sheep that will kill themselves for the company, so your performance will (in their opinion) suffer.

Best option IMO is to try not to care if your colleagues hate you for stupid reasons that are none of their business. They should be hating their management for having unfair expectations of your team.

My work colleagues are generally not my friends and I'm not too concerned with whether they like me or not, although obviously I would rather they did, and generally I'd say that they do like me.

If they hated me for not doing overtime, then that's their problem.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well seeing how most Americans haven't been getting the rewards of capitalism(wages have been stagnant since the 70's, regional inequality + healthcare + housing has made the actual COL much higher), it makes perfect sense that people would start pushing for something different.

Our system isn't perfect, and capitalism overall is shit, but actual socialism somehow manages to be worse. Americans aren't clamoring for socialism.

> Americans aren't clamoring for socialism.

In fact Americans are inexplicably voting for the absolute worst proponents of capitalist corruption.

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#158
post #110

My boss arrived at work in a brand new lamborghini. I said "Wow that's an amazing car!" He replied "if you work hard, strive for excellence and hit your targets, l'll get another one next year!"

Haha yes, I love this joke. I've heard it before and that's how it feels.

I thought the punch line was:

"I will get my mistress one too!"

Re: Ask HN: What to do if you hate working for someone else and arent an entrepreneur?

#159

There’s a thing between being entrepeneurship and working for a company: freelancing. It’s for those that feel no attachment to a company, but do have a very developed skill set or trade. In our free market economy, there will always be a system where someone hires you to create value, which costs less than it makes them, in the end. If you want a bigger slice of that pie, you need to make it a viable business case.…

Doesn't freelancing dry up during economic downturns? I recall hearing some rather grim stories during the 2008 recession and the dot com bust and, if one takes the various economy related articles that appear on HN with increasing frequency these days seriously, we're about due for another bust.

Salaried jobs dry up too.
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