Police Homicides in the United States • Hacker News Board

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#191

Post by indubitable » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 4:44 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #168

indubitable wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the weapons, it's about the people with the weapons. Finland has a national murder rate of 1.6. [1] At first that doesn't seem too bad as our murder rate is "only" about 300% higher. But that comparison by itself is quite misleading. Crime, and especially the most violent crimes including murder, are not evenly distributed in the US. They're heavily centralized into relatively small areas. So for insta…

> I think people don't really consider these situations in terms of context. Then let's add some context to this conversation. This whole post was made because of the recently released video of a police officer executing a citizen[1]. That police officer was then acquitted. This kind of police response would never occur in other civilized countries, regardless of the relative murder rate. [1] https://www.youtube.com/…

I'm having a bit of a parallel discussion elsewhere and I think my response there is completely appropriate here, but I'd rather not just cut and paste the same stuff all over the place: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15885977

The downside of threaded discussions!

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#192

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #163

cup wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>finding real solutions for the tendency to see Blacks gunned down by the police Stop hiring racist police. Stop aquiting police of murder. Stop using tax payers dollars to pay for compensation claims.

Stop hiring racist police. One of the problems is that racism is insidious. People who self identify as idealists who are not racist will still agree with cultural norms that are secondary or tertiary forms of racism. To try to illustrate this idea: In my twenties, after months of hearing about my husband's new best friend from work, I finally met the man. He was black. My husband and I were both white. My husband ha…

A more nutshell version: Would HN be taking this paper seriously if it came from the opposite direction of bias and were written by a White Supremacist? No? Then why does anyone have a problem with me pointing out the obvious bias and agenda in the piece that is broadcast from the start?

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#193

Post by heurist » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

__s wrote: post #106

vidarh wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An example I tend to give is the case a while back where someone was wielding an axe. Two police officers went after him, and the axe-wielding man was shot and killed because he went for one of them. Success, surely? He protected his partner, who might have been harmed. The way something like this would likely have gone down somewhere like the UK would be that the first responders would have called for reinforcement,…

On that last point: people are more likely to resist arrest when they're afraid police are going to kill them during the process of arrest

Or through neglect after arrest

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#194

Post by jeffdavis » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 5:05 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #167

noobiemcfoob wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The broadness of the first amendment is largely responsible for modern American society having as much personal liberty as it does by encompassing the "live and let live" concept The 2nd amendment then keeps the government from having a great justification for countless "protective" measures. Don't help me when I can help myself.

>The 2nd amendment then keeps the government from having a great justification for countless "protective" measures. Don't help me when I can help myself. Can you give any examples of such measures, or evidence that the threat of violent revolution implied in the Second Amendment, versus the political power of the gun lobby and American gun culture, has ever been effective at limiting the US government or its rational…

The post to which you replied refers to self defense rather than a threat of violent revolution.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#195

Post by kurthr » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 5:12 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #173

kurthr wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's not the actual number of shootings, but the video evidence, the militarization of policing, and the lack of even personal responsibility much less punishment for things that look like murder. Yesterday's example:Graphic video shows Daniel Shaver sobbing and begging officer for his life before 2016 shooting According to the police report, Brailsford was carrying an AR-15 rifle with the phrase “You’re F—ed”…

Btw: the police was acquitted of any wrongdoing

Yes, and they (police) believe they did the right thing... that's the point.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#196

Post by thescribe » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #45

TeMPOraL wrote: post #13

Interesting analysis. As a counterpoint to the headline that might be little fear-inducing, my first reaction when reading it was: only so little? Things must be bad. I mean: the perfect situation is when there are no homicides at all. But in a little less perfect imaginary world, in which bad people never get the chance to hurt innocents because police stops it, some bad people might still go down resisting arrest,…

This is based on a false assumption: that the proper police response to life-threatening criminal acts is to kill the perpetrator. If you get past the they deserve it Puritan mentality, the ideal scenario is for police minimize death (of criminals and police officers) at all costs. Numerous other countries handle violent criminals in ways other than "kill them immediately"; the tendency of police officers to use imme…

If the government cannot be counted on to use their monopoly of force why wouldn't everyone resort to vigilantism?

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#197

Post by aquadrop » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

riffraff wrote: post #46

mitchellberry wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You watched the entire video? It's 5 minutes of conflicting instructions and repeated death threats by a man heavily covered in tattoos carrying an assualt rifle with the words "you're f *ed" engraved on it. How were the multiple police officers incapable of handcuffing the clearly compliant crying victim in 5 whole mins? Am amazed anyone watching that could possibly defend it.

I looked at the video and I was expecting some semi-threatening move, like suddenly standing up or something. Nope, just randomly shoot the guy. This is insane. Also, how was not the behaviour "stay on the ground, and my colleague will come and handcuff you ASAP". Where the hell are _other_ cops?

Yes, that's absolutely insane, I don't have words to describe how insane it is and all that was acquitted... And what's worse, they are all (policemen) on it. One guy shouts moronic commands, another one kills a man for nothing. They have "I'm your God and I decide what happens"-complex. That monster who shot the guy should have been disarmed and handcuffed on the spot for a murder, and get a life sentence. All that "I was afraid for my life" for anything BS should stop, cops are so afraid for their lives they're going to kill everyone for it. And everybody acts like it's normal there, and in the end it's all ok, keep going. Thank god I don't need to go to USA, because I'm afraid I can meet such moronic cops accidentally there.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#198

Post by davemp » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #156

indubitable wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lengthy line between condemn and condone. One of the police shootings I find completely and absolutely condemnable is that of Charles Kinsey in Florida [1]. And that was perhaps a nervous breakdown of the officer. Apparently when asked why he shot his immediate response was, "I don't know." In this (Daniel Shaver) video, I think you have to consider the context. If this was a normal scenario and this guy wa…

Imagined scenarios shouldn't ever be used to justify lethal force. That's all there is to say. Police probably shouldn't ever fire their weapons first... Of course that would make being an officer slightly more physically dangerous, but only slightly. Most never have cause to fire their weapons in the line of duty anyway.

This is just fantasy. Sure in nice places where you likely live this may work. These areas are not where police homicides tend to happen though.

Some areas of the USA are actually very dangerous. In these areas there is a much higher likelihood of suspects being harmed and dangerous.

You’re basically asking other humans to implement a sound system (where false negatives mean they die) in an area with relatively high event rates. This doesn’t give me any moral clarity.

In cushy neighborhoods sure police officers likely do implement a complete system and no one gets shot. That’s much easier to justify based on basic probabilities.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#199

Post by TaylorAlexander » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #184

dadada07 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black Lives Matter does want demilitarization everywhere and with everyone. You're getting hung up on the name.

It's not just me. It's just not a good organization to stand behind to focus on the demilitarization of the police. It's too racially motivated to gain popular support. "Black Lives Matter is an international activist movement...that campaigns against violence and systemic racism towards black people... The U.S. population's perception of Black Lives Matter varies considerably by race... former New York City Mayor Ru…

To me that’s appropriate. Black people are at the forefront of police abuse in the US. Solve the problem of black people being abused by police and you’ve solved the problem in general.

I totally agree that many people have a distorted view of the movement but to me that’s a reflection of problems with our culture more than problems with the movement.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#200

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

davemp wrote: post #198

maxerickson wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagined scenarios shouldn't ever be used to justify lethal force. That's all there is to say. Police probably shouldn't ever fire their weapons first... Of course that would make being an officer slightly more physically dangerous, but only slightly. Most never have cause to fire their weapons in the line of duty anyway.

This is just fantasy. Sure in nice places where you likely live this may work. These areas are not where police homicides tend to happen though. Some areas of the USA are actually very dangerous. In these areas there is a much higher likelihood of suspects being harmed and dangerous. You’re basically asking other humans to implement a sound system (where false negatives mean they die) in an area with relatively high…

(where false negatives mean they die)

This study finds a substantial difference in high crime areas, but still most officers never discharge their weapon in the line of duty:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/08/a-closer-loo...

About one-in-five officers (22%) in areas with at least six and but fewer than 10 violent crimes per 1,000 residents in 2015 have ever fired their service weapon. By contrast, about a third (32%) of officers who work in areas with a lower violent crime rate have discharged their gun. In areas where the violent crime rate is 10 or more, 28% of officers have fired their weapon. However, that proportion is not significantly different from the share that works in communities with fewer than six or six to fewer than 10 violent crimes per 1,000 residents.

Maybe the best way to stop them firing first is to not let them carry a firearm.