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Police Homicides in the United States

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Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#161
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't control their weapons because they have to operate in a society that can't control its weapons...

Other countries have plenty of weapons around, yet don't have police that use deadly force immediately. Finland is a prime example[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...

It's not about the weapons, it's about the people with the weapons.

Finland has a national murder rate of 1.6. [1] At first that doesn't seem too bad as our murder rate is "only" about 300% higher. But that comparison by itself is quite misleading. Crime, and especially the most violent crimes including murder, are not evenly distributed in the US. They're heavily centralized into relatively small areas. So for instance these [2] are the crime data for Ferguson, Missouri where Michael Brown was killed. In the year Michael Brown was killed, their homicide rate was double the US average. It's now skyrocketed to 42.8 - 2,675% higher than Finland.

To give some context to that 42.8 the murder rate in Mexico is 16.35. In Columbia it's 26.5. As a matter of fact, in terms of nations - there are only 5 places in the world more dangerous than Ferguson, Missouri -- a town of some 20k people. I'm certainly not condoning police actions, but at the same time I think people don't really consider these situations in terms of context. Somebody, seemingly without irony, suggested we ought disarm the police. Imagine disarmed police in Mexico.. now increase the danger they face by 300%. That's what disarming police in areas like Ferguson, Missouri would be akin to.

This sort of reality is very foreign to us, who I suspect for the most part have led very privileged lives. And so we extrapolate our lives to a situation where suddenly the police are just killing people. And that would indeed be insane. It's so foreign for us to imagine how dangerous many places in the US are -- and it's these locations where the systemic police violence tends to also be heavily centralized.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...

[2] - http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Ferguson-Missouri.html

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You watched the entire video? It's 5 minutes of conflicting instructions and repeated death threats by a man heavily covered in tattoos carrying an assualt rifle with the words "you're f *ed" engraved on it. How were the multiple police officers incapable of handcuffing the clearly compliant crying victim in 5 whole mins? Am amazed anyone watching that could possibly defend it.

You're missing the context of the encounter. Police were called when someone saw an occupant of the hotel room brandishing a weapon. The responders don't just walk up and cuff the man and woman because they are not sure if these are the armed people and are trying to stay out of a theoretical field of fire from the room. That's not to say this isn't an awful video to watch. The officers scared the guy so much that it…

How is that the context? Police are called to scenes where someone has believed to have seen a gun all the time. 99% of time, it is not. 99.9999% of time, they are not looking to shoot police with it.

"theoretical field of fire" it's not a war zone. It's time to acknowledge that part of the job description of a police officer is that you can do everything right and still be shot by a maniac. That's no different to any of us.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#163
post #56

I can't manage to read the whole thing. It starts from an assumption of guilt and corruption. It is looking for support for an accusation. Such an agenda does not make for good science. Don't get me wrong. I would be very interested in finding real solutions for the tendency to see Blacks gunned down by the police. My assumption is this known trend is the driving force behind this piece. I just think this is the wron…

>finding real solutions for the tendency to see Blacks gunned down by the police Stop hiring racist police. Stop aquiting police of murder. Stop using tax payers dollars to pay for compensation claims.

Stop hiring racist police.

One of the problems is that racism is insidious. People who self identify as idealists who are not racist will still agree with cultural norms that are secondary or tertiary forms of racism.

To try to illustrate this idea:

In my twenties, after months of hearing about my husband's new best friend from work, I finally met the man. He was black. My husband and I were both white. My husband had never once mentioned that his new best friend was black, even though he talked about him constantly.

I was shocked to realize that I had assumed he was white since my husband did not mention his race. In that instant, I realized this assumption was the product of a racist culture where such details mattered and needed to be stated privately ahead of time to avoid any awkwardness or misunderstanding.

I realized that was how racism worked -- you just have certain social norms that may seem innocuous, but that reinforce the ongoing issue. Many people will not consciously question myriad social norms. People soak up social norms by being exposed to them and trying to fit in. There usually isn't lots of overt instruction on how and why we do such things.

So, first you need someone to sort this out in their own heart and mind. Second, they need to disseminate this new standard, often at enormous risk to themselves. Questioning social norms is generally dangerous business and has a history of getting people killed.

Trying to find genuinely not racist people in a generally racist culture is very challenging. Most people from such a culture who see themselves as not racist will still have ugly bad habits and mental models.

And then, when they need to decide whether to pull the trigger or not, their biases will show, not because they hate Blacks so much that they want them dead, but because they don't trust Blacks as much as Whites.

I don't believe this is a problem that will really be solved by simply punishing people more a la The beatings shall continue until morale improves. Instead, we need to improve trust and I don't how that can happen. But it certainly won't happen with our current approach to the problem space, where trust issues between the races in America seem to not even be part of the discussion.

My original comment was downvoted to the negatives and one of the first three replies is a personal attack. The US was founded on the idea of innocent until proven guilty, but the public is not willing to follow that precept for this issue. Witch hunts tend to result in finding people guilty because that is what they set out to do. It is a very serious and damning flaw in this paper, but my comment on that aspect is not PC and is reason enough to lump me in with killer cops as part of the problem.

In such an atmosphere, good luck with even having a productive discussion. And if you can't even discuss it, you are unlikely to solve it.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You watched the entire video? It's 5 minutes of conflicting instructions and repeated death threats by a man heavily covered in tattoos carrying an assualt rifle with the words "you're f *ed" engraved on it. How were the multiple police officers incapable of handcuffing the clearly compliant crying victim in 5 whole mins? Am amazed anyone watching that could possibly defend it.

There's a lengthy line between condemn and condone. One of the police shootings I find completely and absolutely condemnable is that of Charles Kinsey in Florida [1]. And that was perhaps a nervous breakdown of the officer. Apparently when asked why he shot his immediate response was, "I don't know." In this (Daniel Shaver) video, I think you have to consider the context. If this was a normal scenario and this guy wa…

This is not all how this is handled by sane police forces. Only in the US do they keep stumbling into these "extremely unfortunate scenarios", do they, and therein lies the blame.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#165
post #128
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, both to that and to policemen‘s fear of simple traffic stops. In most other countries the police officer can encounter a citizen without drawn gun because the odds of the citizen wielding a gun or worse are miniscule. In America even the drawn handgun might not be superior armament.

Even with all of the guns it is highly unlikely a cop will be shot at during a routine traffic stop. It's highly unlikely to get shot at in general. Risk factors include living in an open carry state (Arizona), heavily tinted windows (the cop can't see in), not being white, and driving a risky car. In this case, while not a traffic stop, the attempted arrest protocol was just stupid and it resulted in his death. That…

Just because it may be low, does that mean they shouldn't do everything they can to mitigate that to as low as possible?

If my loved one was a police officer, I'd want them taking every precaution they could - so they get to come home tonight.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a Puritan mentality. It's the fact that any person they interact with could be armed. The reason many other countries police deal with violent criminals in a different way is because it is very unlikely those criminals will be armed. Where I live (Hungary) there is almost no gun violence. The few instances I'm aware of that do involve guns are things where violent groups are involved like organized crime or…

The proliferation of guns isn't everything. Finland has one of the highest number of guns per capita[1], yet their crime rates are one of the lowest. There is a massive correlation between (gun) crime and poverty. Regional inequality means that those who live in poverty have a pretty poor chance of improving their lives. To me, the problem stems less from guns and more from a poor quality of life for massive numbers…

Extremely interesting list!

I'd love to see a set of worldwide correlations:

- homicide rate VS gun ownership (very little, apparently!)

- homicide rate VS income inequality

- homicide rate VS wealth inequality

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#167
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NRA is the predominant defender of 2nd amendment rights, which is, arguably, the second worst idea of the US constitution (after the extreme formulation of the first amendment).

The broadness of the first amendment is largely responsible for modern American society having as much personal liberty as it does by encompassing the "live and let live" concept The 2nd amendment then keeps the government from having a great justification for countless "protective" measures. Don't help me when I can help myself.

>The 2nd amendment then keeps the government from having a great justification for countless "protective" measures. Don't help me when I can help myself.

Can you give any examples of such measures, or evidence that the threat of violent revolution implied in the Second Amendment, versus the political power of the gun lobby and American gun culture, has ever been effective at limiting the US government or its rationale?

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other countries have plenty of weapons around, yet don't have police that use deadly force immediately. Finland is a prime example[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_c...

It's not about the weapons, it's about the people with the weapons. Finland has a national murder rate of 1.6. [1] At first that doesn't seem too bad as our murder rate is "only" about 300% higher. But that comparison by itself is quite misleading. Crime, and especially the most violent crimes including murder, are not evenly distributed in the US. They're heavily centralized into relatively small areas. So for insta…

> I think people don't really consider these situations in terms of context.

Then let's add some context to this conversation. This whole post was made because of the recently released video of a police officer executing a citizen[1]. That police officer was then acquitted. This kind of police response would never occur in other civilized countries, regardless of the relative murder rate.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M62Va6Ft2cw

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#169
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An example I tend to give is the case a while back where someone was wielding an axe. Two police officers went after him, and the axe-wielding man was shot and killed because he went for one of them. Success, surely? He protected his partner, who might have been harmed. The way something like this would likely have gone down somewhere like the UK would be that the first responders would have called for reinforcement,…

I wonder if some of the preference for violence in the American policing tradition goes back to Western films - where outlaws are wanted dead or alive, a quick draw is the main thing a lawman needs, and the climax of the film is the lawman meeting the bad man in the street, drawing first and shooting him dead.

I think it's more likely that U.S. police are, on the whole, poorly trained for these kinds of situations. I don't have any hard evidence to support this but have heard interviews with people who study the problem of police violence say that improper training (or more likely zero training) contributes mightily to the problem.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You watched the entire video? It's 5 minutes of conflicting instructions and repeated death threats by a man heavily covered in tattoos carrying an assualt rifle with the words "you're f *ed" engraved on it. How were the multiple police officers incapable of handcuffing the clearly compliant crying victim in 5 whole mins? Am amazed anyone watching that could possibly defend it.

I looked at the video and I was expecting some semi-threatening move, like suddenly standing up or something. Nope, just randomly shoot the guy. This is insane. Also, how was not the behaviour "stay on the ground, and my colleague will come and handcuff you ASAP". Where the hell are _other_ cops?

> I was expecting some semi-threatening move

Hold on. An unarmed person standing up an even yelling or walking towards the cop it's still clearly not a serious threat and would not justify shooting in most "first" countries!

Let's not normalize the idea of "extreme self defence".

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