Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won • Hacker News Board

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#191

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 7:44 PM UTC

overhang wrote: post #166

logfromblammo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Change that to median roadway speed, and I'll be on board. Speed limits are too often set by clueless folk for political concerns, rather than by traffic engineers for maximum throughput for a given safety factor. There should be some allowance for ensuring that the median speeds of adjacent lanes have a good range separation. I can't even count how many times I have seen a tractor-trailer in the left lane at 70 mph…

> I can't even count how many times I have seen a tractor-trailer in the left lane at 70 mph passing a tractor-trailer in the right lane at 69 mph, as passenger cars stack up behind them. It creates a dangerous situation that I can only avoid by slowing down or exiting the roadway. Presuming the max speed was 70mph, your post epitomizes the real danger. Traffic should not stack up behind vehicles traveling at the max…

> proper following distances, all traveling 70mph

Hi. Welcome to Earth. It looks like you missed orientation.

Humans drive at different speeds, and usually follow too closely. We have recognized this species-wide problem, and are currently trying to build driving robots that will reduce the impact. Until they are ready, every collision you may see on the road was likely caused by a human driving non-optimally.

Therefore, rational drivers must presume that the other vehicles on the road may possibly behave irrationally, and therefore must introduce a safety margin for the incorrect behavior of other drivers in addition to the margin defined by their own capabilities.

Show me a train of 20 cars moving at 70 mph with less than 1 second of separation between them, and I'm just going to ease off the accelerator, and maybe look for my next rest stop, until those lunatics are far enough ahead that I'll possibly learn about their 6-vehicle pile-up early enough to detour around it. The only way that is optimal is if there are zero humans in it.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#192

Post by tnoaes32snuei » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 7:45 PM UTC

trvlngwlbry wrote: post #133

manyxcxi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up in Oregon I was always annoyed by the slow as hell left lane campers. Having spent a half decade elsewhere and recently moving back it has escalated from annoyance to blood boiling seething rage. When I left Seattle, the state of WA was really making a push to get slowpokes out of the left lane with a media campaign and instituting tickets for people who are slowing traffic down. I LOVE the idea.

I've felt the same way about "slow as hell left lane campers" for years and thought that maybe — if states never did anything to fix it — there might be a commercial solution to fixing this. The idea I came up with awhile ago was to build a network of motorcyclists willing to attach a sign to the back of their bike, that reads (something like), "You're causing traffic by being in this lane at your speed - please move…

I doubt it would work. It's like the signs that say "Drive like your kids live here!" Every time I see those, I want to speed up. I know it's stupid. But the moral finger wagging of it just sets off something. I actually agree with the sentiment - it's just the way it's presented.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#193

Post by ndespres » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 7:47 PM UTC

trvlngwlbry wrote: post #133

manyxcxi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing up in Oregon I was always annoyed by the slow as hell left lane campers. Having spent a half decade elsewhere and recently moving back it has escalated from annoyance to blood boiling seething rage. When I left Seattle, the state of WA was really making a push to get slowpokes out of the left lane with a media campaign and instituting tickets for people who are slowing traffic down. I LOVE the idea.

I've felt the same way about "slow as hell left lane campers" for years and thought that maybe — if states never did anything to fix it — there might be a commercial solution to fixing this. The idea I came up with awhile ago was to build a network of motorcyclists willing to attach a sign to the back of their bike, that reads (something like), "You're causing traffic by being in this lane at your speed - please move…

Are you seriously proposing that motorcyclists get in FRONT of drivers on the highway with a sign on their back to provoke the drivers into going faster, for a micropayment?

Motorcyclists have enough trouble as it is.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#194

Post by wandernotlost » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 7:54 PM UTC

overhang wrote: post #179

wandernotlost wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Stop it. This attitude is consistently responsible for the most dangerous road conditions I see driving in America. Keep right except to pass. Period. Everybody traveling the same "maximum speed limit" is a fantasy and rarely exists in reality. There are lots of good reasons for traveling over the speed limit (quickly passing to avoid prolonged travel in close proximity to another car, for example). Left lane cru…

> Your prescription creates situations in which it is literally impossible to drive safely That is ridiculous. If the vehicle in front of you is traveling 75mph and you want to travel 80mph, it is not impossible for you to drive safely. If the vehicle in front of you seems especially dangerous to be behind, it is still not impossible to drive safely. I recently got run out of my lane by a semi who swerved in from the…

You missed the point.

I'm not talking about situations with two vehicles on the road. What happens with regular traffic is that you get someone driving 75mph in the right lane and another driving 75mph in the left lane, and it's game over for the whole highway. Once a few more vehicles accumulate, there's no safe driving stance. If you stay in the left, a gap develops on the right and people coming up to the jam pass to the right and then unsafely merge in. If you stay on the right, people passing others on the right are closing on you at ridiculous speed, or you're stuck driving a couple of feet away from another vehicle (on your left) that's tailgating and being tailgated and jockeying for position.

Taking the stance of "I'm traveling the speed limit, so I can stay in the left lane as long as I want" ignores the reality that there are other drivers that don't necessarily agree with you. Staying right except to pass minimizes the risk to everyone involved, accommodating both conservative drivers and aggressive or unsafe drivers, and lets everybody coexist. Staying left increases the danger and promotes road rage and other unsafe driving behaviors such as tailgating and right-lane passing.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#195

Post by Johnny555 » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

En_gr_Student wrote: post #99

I think the guy was out of line. I'm an engineer. I had to put at least a decade of my life, 1/8 if stats are right, into freaking hard work to earn the right to use the title, and the skill-set to not kill people while doing it. That guy is a slap in the face to every engineer who had to work for their credentials instead of "name it and claim it" in the name of "free speech". This is like shouting "fire in a theate…

In Oregon you would not be titled as an "engineer", what you are describing is a "Professional Engineer", which is not what the original letter writer was claiming to be.

It's not like this is a new use of the word, "software engineering [1]" has been around for at least 70 years. So if you're trying to fight a battle against the misappropriate of the term "engineering", that battle was lost long ago.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_software_engineerin...

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#196

Post by mikestew » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 7:56 PM UTC

drewmol wrote: post #188

mikestew wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not obligated, no, but certainly the polite thing to do. Problem is in Seattle, what was a polite thing to do is now considered an obligation. “No matter how slow I’m going, you have to let me in” has been local culture for the seventeen years I’ve lived here, wrong as it might be. Which means when they’re creeping down the exit ramp, if they end up beside you they won’t even look when they move over. No, I am not ex…

I often see people refuse to move from far right lane and refuse to adjust their speed to accommodate drivers merging onto a 3+ lane highway/freeway. I don't know the laws on this one but it seems like a similar level of asshole behavior as staying in the passing lane despite an open lane to the right and faster cars behind. You may have the right of way but an action that's usually very simple for you can alleviate…

I often see people refuse to move from far right lane and refuse to adjust their speed to accommodate drivers merging onto a 3+ lane highway/freeway.

In Seattle, often times you can't move out of the lane, traffic's too thick. Which is why the person in the right lane needs to make accomodations to those merging, and the person merging needs to do their part by accelerating to speed of traffic. It's a cooperation, and when the mergers don't do their part it fucks it up for everyone else. I have to disrupt traffic flow because your Mustang can't accelerate to 60mph in a reasonable amount of time. Or I don't let you in, now everyone behind you on the exit ramp gets to slam on their brakes. Given the choice, I'll screw up the exit ramp by not yielding to a slow-poke rather than screw up multiple lanes on I-405 by slamming on my brakes or making a questionable lane change.

On the flip side, if I've accelerated to the speed of traffic flow and you don't want to let me in, I'll remind you that in the Chicago-style school of driving where I got my black belt, the turn signal is a warning and not a request.

EDIT: refuse to adjust their speed to accommodate drivers merging onto a 3+ lane highway/freeway

Wait a minute, what? The general traffic lanes have absolutely no obligation to adjust their speed to accommodate anything coming down the entrance ramp except an emergency vehicle. It is the responsibility of those merging from the entrance ramp to adjust their speed to the flow of traffic. It's in the driver's manual of three states I've lived in, and I'd be surprised if it weren't universal.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#197

Post by drewmol » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #153

subhobroto wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For future reference, that would have been enough to get the ticket dismissed. Tickets must be based on calibrated range speedometers, not the officer's odometer. That is incorrect. PACING (officer's odometer) is accepted by the court. If you can provide any case/regulation that refutes this, I will pay you money for the lead. > since the worst case scenario is you get the same punishment you would have gotten if y…

Rely on the assumption that the prosecutor, judge, and officer do not care about nailing you, specifically, as much as they care about just doing their job and going home. If you make your case seem like more work for them, or if it will end up costing them money to prosecute, they will very likely drop it, even if you are guilty as sin. If I could make 100 deals in the same time it takes to prepare for one trial, I'…

At first I misread you last sentence as "but I'm a lawyer so I don't get tickets" and it seemed fitting

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#198

Post by jbob2000 » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #180

jbob2000 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it matter if his points are valid? I don't need to be a chef to know when the meat is spoiled.

It matters specifically in the case of making legal arguments. I'm not saying the board was right, but please see it from their perspective. A certified traffic engineer would also use the term "engineer" in his findings. The latter's analysis would be given much more weight, be trusted more, simply because that's what certification is meant for . We've created titles and institutions for a purpose, so that Average J…

Sure, if we're talking about some kind of complicated physics and structural calculations, with lots of technical jargon - yes, involve the engineers.

But we're talking about some simple math for counting the length of traffic lights. Everybody uses traffic lights, everybody knows simple math. It is ridiculous to assert that you need a technical qualification to know it's wrong that red light cameras flash at 100 seconds, but the light changes at 110 seconds.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#199

Post by buxtehude » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 8:11 PM UTC

czep wrote: post #186

briffle wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I moved back to OR from the Midwest last spring.. its maddening that all 3 lanes seem to travel within 3-5 mph of each other, usually right at the speed limit (or lately, in the dark at 5pm, under it), and nobody passes anyone..

Maddening? That sounds perfectly peaceful to me! It sounds like everyone just wants to get where they're going, safely. Why do you feel so driven (!) to go so fast? Given the choice between what you describe---an orderly set of traffic at near the speed limit---or a free-for-all in which inevitably an aggressive lane-changer clips someone at 85mph spreading blood and metal all over the highway and stopping traffic fo…

I'm not sure if you're just trolling here, but will address some issues.

The assumption that a set maximum speed is the safest for all drivers is erroneous. There are many factors at play and a proper safe speed depends in part on the driver, the driving conditions, and the car they are driving (and much more).

Unless you are in very heavy traffic, forcing people to go slow or worse to pass you on the right is causing a much larger safety issue.

If we are interested in improving safety imo we should be focused on things like vastly improving driver education and requiring any driver to show knowledge, understanding and skills related to driving - including and especially on high speed highways. In California, you can get a license without ever actually driving on a highway (or "freeway") - which is absurd.

Please compare death rates from countries around the world (including Germany): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#Safety:_international...

It's much harder to get a license in Germany than it is here in the US!

The motorway death rate in Germany is almost half what it is in the US.

I urge you to think about this and question your assumptions.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#200

Post by StillBored » Fri, Dec 08, 2017, 8:17 PM UTC

overhang wrote: post #181

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The speed limit is irreverent. It's about relative speed between vehicles. Slower stays to the right. Slightly faster moves left to pass them as they come up behind them and moves right as soon as appropriate afterwards. Apply recursively for the number of lanes. The "I'm following the law, screw moving over for anyone " attitude when applied in the left lane is exactly the problem that's causing this discussion. >So…

Just as a thought experiment, imagine a line of 20 vehicles all traveling at a safe distance going the exact same speed--the legal maximum limit. Does this sound like a utopia to you, or a nightmare? Do you think this would make traffic more optimal, or would it cause untold safety issues? If somebody in the left lane is traveling at the legal maximum speed and it causes traffic to stack up behind them, does this cre…

What you describe will be safe when all 20 of those cars are self driving. In the meantime, your trying to get 20 people to agree on what is the correct speed. Not only that, but your trying to get 20 people to hold that speed exactly. Invariably what happens is that a couple cars are going to go a little slower up hill (or whatever) and cause yo-yo'ing in the line, which is what causes actual traffic jams.

The result is the guy in the back is going to be speeding up and slowing down around the speed limit. That is extremely annoying. If you haven't been this guy, I can only assume your always the guy in the front cruising in the fast lane causing 19+ people behind you to get angry and want to kill you.

Basically, travel in the right lane, unless your going to put the effort in and pass the person in the right lane within a reasonable time-frame (say in under a minute). Otherwise your just creating more problems. Wishing that isn't true doesn't make the problem go away, its just creating unsafe conditions for other people, who are frequently just trying to drive as safe as possible too.