$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology • Hacker News Board

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#211

Post by xtreme » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

jonstewart wrote: post #182

sageabilly wrote: post #168

I live in Northern Virginia, and the statement "People who were totally banned from a road now could now use it at its busiest time" is false. People were already driving on I-66 solo during HOV-only hours, they were just counting on super lax enforcement and the law of probability falling in their favor for not getting caught. When riding in the metro in the mornings (which runs parallel to I-66 into DC for a time)…

Have you ever heard of induced demand? More roads and bridges are not the answer, especially since the associated capital costs could go a long ways towards fixing Metro and thereby provide greater utility. Northern Virginia has some of the absolute dumbest land use policies and traffic planning of anywhere in the nation. It's reaping what it's sown with traffic congestion. This is a big step in the right direction.…

I never understood this argument against more roads/bridges. Even if there is no improvement in latency (travel times), isn't the increase in throughput (number of people traveling) and the associated economic benefit worth it?

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#212

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #205

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

Whenever I see "problematic" it's always someone who is pointing out something that is not actually a real problem, ie. supported by data or facts, but they desperately want it to be because it doesnt make them "feel" right or it seems like the "right thing to do". More often than not it runs counter to their initial goals (increasing exclusion in the name of inclusion, hurting everyone in the name of punishing the t…

My main concern is that the people in power (the ones with money) will direct resources to deluxe infrastructure because they can afford it and neglect basic infrastructure. When I hear people in Congress talk about the US system being the best in the world it's already clear that they haven't experienced it from the view of somebody with little money.

When I drive around LA this trend is visible. Rich neighborhoods have nice roads and don't allow street parking so they don't get much traffic. Poor neighborhoods have bad streets and get a lot of traffic.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#213

Post by AndrewKemendo » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 3:50 PM UTC

pwg wrote: post #112

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #5

I guess I'm at a loss here because I've lived in DC almost 6 years now and it never occurred to me that I-66 was HOV only during certain portions of the day. I know I am not alone in this because I see similar conversations happening elsewhere. Additionally, many comments say that single traveler HOV use is forbidden however I frequently see single drivers in the HOV lanes on 66 and elsewhere un-restricted. As a comp…

> guess I'm at a loss here because I've lived in DC almost 6 years now and it never occurred to me that I-66 was HOV only during certain portions of the day. Here is a photo of one of the HOV restriction signs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/20... This sign seems perfectly clear, provided of course one has learned the acronym "HOV". These signs (and they are large signs, the small no-truck…

Those look like any other sign that is routinely ignored by most drivers because they assume they aren't applicable - like: "Over 13 feet must exit" "No trucks" etc...

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#214

Post by philwelch » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

xtreme wrote: post #211

jonstewart wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever heard of induced demand? More roads and bridges are not the answer, especially since the associated capital costs could go a long ways towards fixing Metro and thereby provide greater utility. Northern Virginia has some of the absolute dumbest land use policies and traffic planning of anywhere in the nation. It's reaping what it's sown with traffic congestion. This is a big step in the right direction.…

I never understood this argument against more roads/bridges. Even if there is no improvement in latency (travel times), isn't the increase in throughput (number of people traveling) and the associated economic benefit worth it?

At the expense of turning cities into 1970’s-era concrete hellscapes where you need to drive to get anywhere.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#215

Post by sharpercoder » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 3:57 PM UTC

beobab wrote: post #83

sharpercoder wrote: post #79

We have the best road system in the world with high quality roads over the whole country. Most roads are "rain-resistant", meaning heavy rainfall does not affect road conditions negatively. We don't have any toll roads. We do pay a relatively high tax for it though. The article is spot on that tolls are the consequence of public not willing to increase their taxes.

Where are you?

The Netherlands.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#216

Post by kbutler » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #157

kbutler wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a really market-oriented guy, but I have concerns about wealth's distorting effect on markets. That is, the "cost" of an item is much less to a wealthy person than to a non-wealthy person. Billionaire Bob can spend $100,000 on a whim, but Pauper Paul can't scrounge $10,000 for life-critical health-care. Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot ri…

> Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot rise enough This happened recently in Texas not because of a market failure, but because Texas has “anti-gouging” laws that prevent people from raising prices around a disaster, which entirely predictably had the effect of people being unable to get what they needed (wood, water, etc.) during Harvey.

Yes, anti-gouging laws are well-known for preventing supply increasing to meet the demand.

https://hbr.org/2013/07/the-problem-with-price-gouging-laws

"A well-known gouging case involves the invisible hand actions of John Shepperson. After the Hurricane Katrina disaster, John bought 19 generators, rented a U-Haul truck, and drove 600 miles from Kentucky to Mississippi. In return for his efforts and risk, he hoped to sell the generators at double his purchase price. Instead, he was arrested for price gouging, spent 4 days in jail, and the generators were confiscated. It’s a tricky issue: while Mr. Shepperson’s morality can be debated, his initiative would have unequivocally added supply and made some people better off. We all are charitable, of course, but how many of you would have rented a truck and driven twelve hundred miles round trip to sell generators for the price you purchased them?"

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#217

Post by ihm » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:00 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #205

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

Whenever I see "problematic" it's always someone who is pointing out something that is not actually a real problem, ie. supported by data or facts, but they desperately want it to be because it doesnt make them "feel" right or it seems like the "right thing to do". More often than not it runs counter to their initial goals (increasing exclusion in the name of inclusion, hurting everyone in the name of punishing the t…

You seem to be suggesting the only two options are

1. No one uses the nice thing.

2. Only thing richer people use the nice thing.

There are plenty of other ways of allocating resources besides giving it to the richest people. E.g., there could be a lottery so that everyone gets to use the nice thing sometimes.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#218

Post by usaar333 » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:03 PM UTC

xtreme wrote: post #211

jonstewart wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever heard of induced demand? More roads and bridges are not the answer, especially since the associated capital costs could go a long ways towards fixing Metro and thereby provide greater utility. Northern Virginia has some of the absolute dumbest land use policies and traffic planning of anywhere in the nation. It's reaping what it's sown with traffic congestion. This is a big step in the right direction.…

I never understood this argument against more roads/bridges. Even if there is no improvement in latency (travel times), isn't the increase in throughput (number of people traveling) and the associated economic benefit worth it?

Not necessarily

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#219

Post by avar » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #189

avar wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel taxes are a very crude tool, road tolls are much better instrument to actually regulate the behavior you care about. If you raise fuel taxes because there's too much congestion that's going to equally affect someone who lives in some rural area where congestion isn't an issue at all, and someone who's driving down a busy freeway every day contributing to congestion. You also raise the price of gasoline, which ha…

You could have regional fuel charges. However, you don't want to discrage driving in a specific place you want to reduce it everywhere to reduce pollution everywhere. PS: People often say you can't out build congestion, but the data in no way supports that argument. D.C. Metro area for example has horrible traffic, but just looking at road layout the failures are obvious.

Discouraging driving in general is one thing with one market price, discouraging driving where it leads to congestion is another thing with a higher market price.

Not all vehicles that cause congestion even use gasoline, which is another reason for why trying to solve congestion with higher fuel taxes is a bad idea. Your Tesla is just as bad for congestion as a gas guzzler.

Even ignoring that, regional fuel charges don't fix the problem. There's plenty of big cities where you can drive in specific areas or at specific times without causing any congestion problems, which is why it makes sense to charge road tolls on specific roads at specific times.

Vehicles can also drive to different regions to fill up, which becomes a big problem of arbitrage if you try to make the regions too granular.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#220

Post by neves » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

This is kind of a joke, but imagine this scenario:

If I illegally immigrate to USA, how much I would make just to take a ride with people?

I believe I could charge US$20 per trip. One trip early morning, go back by public transportation (it is just 10 miles!), and get another ride. The same at rush hour in the other direction. It would me about 80 * 22 = $1760 each month. Nothing bad. Better than a minimum wage of $1,150 per month.

This is a kind of job that exists in a lot of places: https://gizmodo.com/10-transportation-related-jobs-that-only...