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$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

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Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#51

Post by em3rgent0rdr »

freetime2 wrote: post #40
maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

I'm curious how they use the money from the $40 toll. If, for example, they used the money to improve roads and other public transportation options so that everyone on average gets where they need to go faster, then that ought to make everyone happy. Or else just divide up the revenue and mail everyone in the state a check at the end of the year. That would make me less angry about the fact that other people are able…

> "I'm curious how they use the money from the $40 toll."

The article says that it is being used to fund new construction:

"This is what transportation costs!"

"The real reason there's sticker shock is that the real cost of road transportation is hidden from most voters. Gas tax money goes to states and the US Department of Transportation which flows back as what seems like free federal money to build a lot of roads. Meanwhile, every transit project has to scrimp for funds and deal with constant sniping from critics calling it a boondoggle."

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#52

Post by nwrk »

Can it be cheaper if you drive faster ?

ie. 45mph = $40

ie. 80mph = $30

ie. 100mph = $6 (for contrast)

et cetera ? That would make traffic flow and people happy ?

Not US driver, don't know the US speed limits. On oposite side, Germany doesn't have speed limits on some tolls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#53

Post by GVIrish »

Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Ignoring the morals for a second, with tolls that high and difficulty identifying which vehicles qualify for a HOV exemption, I wonder how many days of tolls a single ticket is and likelihood of being caught? Let's say a ticket is $150. If the toll is $6 then you're likely better off paying the toll as you're likely to be caught at least once every 25 days. At $40 they'd need to catch you at least once a week for you…

They've got multiple camera stations and EZ Pass scanners so they'll just mail you the bill now. Before a cop had to pull you over to catch you cheating in the HOV lane.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#54

Post by GVIrish »

philsnow wrote: post #25

> Last week, only people in carpools with two people or more, drivers with an exempt hybrid vehicle, [...] during peak times. > This week, [...]. Hybrid folks and Dulles users also lost their privileges, [...] If I bought a home on the far end of this road thinking I could buy a hybrid or electric car and use it on the toll road, and then suddenly they take that away and start charging $30 each way, I'd be really ups…

The hybrid car exemption for HOV was supposed to be temporary but it kept getting extended for years. New hybrids couldn't get the special license plates but if you got in before the cutoff you could keep the license plate and keep transferring to whatever new hybrid or electric car you bought.

I can imagine a lot of the people with the alt fuels tags are angry, but at the same time their exemption was never supposed to last this long.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#55

Post by GVIrish »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #5

I guess I'm at a loss here because I've lived in DC almost 6 years now and it never occurred to me that I-66 was HOV only during certain portions of the day. I know I am not alone in this because I see similar conversations happening elsewhere. Additionally, many comments say that single traveler HOV use is forbidden however I frequently see single drivers in the HOV lanes on 66 and elsewhere un-restricted. As a comp…

State and local police did enforce the HOV lane laws, usually by catching people on either the on or off ramp. Now if you don't have the EZPass transponder they'll just mail you the bill.

A decent amount of people used to cheat in the HOV lanes but the penalties get very high very fast (fine doubles for each additional violation), so I think it worked as a decent deterrent.

The people who would be most upset by this change are the ones who scheduled their commutes either before or after the HOV restriction and hybrid drivers. I think it is a bit unfair to expand the HOV/toll period by this much since some people were getting in to work before 6:30 and leaving before 4 to make their commutes work.

The alt-fuel vehicle exemption will sting for people who were grandfathered in, but at the same time that was not supposed to last as many years as it did.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#56

Post by scythe »

divanvisagie wrote: post #35
JauntyHatAngle wrote: post #29

I mean, one of the problems with tolls is that it is another form of taxing that has a bigger impact the lower income you have. Without getting into an ideological discussion, having surge pricing on tolls would contribute to a minor divide in class. In Australia this is a current topic, as (in Sydney specifically) there was a recent controversial highway widening which has been funded by tolls and constructed by a p…

Ive seen multiple sources say that widening roads only makes the problem worse yet in this article and in your comment it seems like the "solution" people are going for. That leaves me wondering; Are these sources not sound or are the people in charge of transport morons?

There are a few cases where widening roads actually does make traffic jams worse (Braess' paradox), but in the majority of cases, wider roads make traffic flow better, but more traffic flows, which makes the benefit smaller than what you'd expect if the same number of cars were on the road. It's debatable whether the increased traffic flow is an undesirable side effect or represents an increase in public utility.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#57

Post by adrianN »

bsder wrote: post #46
divanvisagie wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive seen multiple sources say that widening roads only makes the problem worse yet in this article and in your comment it seems like the "solution" people are going for. That leaves me wondering; Are these sources not sound or are the people in charge of transport morons?

Define "makes the problem worse". More lanes, in networking terms, improves throughput but doesn't improve latency. More lanes moves more cars. That's fairly straightforward. More lanes doesn't improve the time of an individual commute on the road or cut down on congestion of the road. People have a fixed annoyance level, and congestion will increase until that annoyance level equilibrium is reached again. The only t…

More lanes also induce more demand. Plus there is this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27s_paradox

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#58

Post by cobbzilla »

olympus wrote: post #26
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where they previously had no permission to drive at all. I think this is where it's getting hung up. The signage and all other road markings on I-66 did not give a solo driver the overwhelming impression that they did not have "permission" to drive on those roads. Compounding this is that it was/is only during certain portions of the day. As an example, if I go onto the Dulles or Loudoun county toll roads, it's expli…

Definitely unique. I've never lived in DC but visited a few times for work and was flabbergasted when I heard about slug lines (I still am). It's a bad driving situation when you'll voluntarily get into a stranger's car, and drivers will just let random strangers in their car. That doesn't happen in any of the cities I've lived in.

They do this in the SF Bay area, it's called casual carpool. Very popular in the East Bay. I used to do it for many years, both as a driver and passenger. It's all about getting past the Bay Bridge toll plaza, and the carpool lane goes way faster than the (sometimes horribly) backed up traffic. The FastTrac lanes aren't any good when it gets so backed up.

Yes there are myriad unspoken rules, and hilarious stories about when they are flagrantly violated. But over the years I've had some great rides, met some wonderful people, discovered some new music, and generally enjoyed the experience of intermixing with fellow humanity in a random but mutually beneficial way.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#59

Post by kalleboo »

iaw wrote: post #2

> "The real reason there's sticker shock is that the real cost of road transportation is hidden from most voters. Gas tax money goes to states and the US Department of Transportation which flows back as what seems like free federal money to build a lot of roads. Meanwhile, every transit project has to scrimp for funds..." "...estimated that tolls would have to be at least $41 to pay off the costs of construction." A…

An interesting contrast is Japan, where the highway system was totally privatized, and to get almost anywhere you have to pay tolls. A 300 km (280 mi) drive can cost you 6000 yen ($50) in tolls.

Of course in Japan there are usually alternatives. Not always any cheaper though. The bullet train for the same route as above costs 9000 yen, but is 3x faster than driving.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#60

Post by pishpash »

olympus wrote: post #4

I don't think people are being unreasonable by being unhappy with a $40 toll. The way the article words it, solo drivers all of a sudden saw a $40 toll where they previously had no permission to drive at all. What actually happened was that people were expecting to see a $6 toll be put in place and instead saw a $40. Imagine going to McDonald's where your friend told you that you could get a Filet o' Fish for $1 but…

The issue is this: being banned is a certainty, the decision is simple; being asked to pay a variable price, once you go there as a captive (you're already chosen to take that road, say) is forcing you into an uninformed decision. Of course people would be pissed, what's hard to understand?
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