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Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

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Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#91
post #41

I am a mathematics professor (at a non-elite university). If anyone has advice on how I can help our students (at all levels -- undergrad and grad) get jobs in any of these industries, I would be grateful to listen!

I’d tell them to begin work in a portfolio of whatever they’re interested in doing. If they want to work in IT then take the time to learn some cloud platform and Linux sys administration. Try to obtain the A+ asap. If they want to be in data analytics then learn python, excel (for the HR departments of the world), and statistics. Then make a code example repo and/or blog with some analytics. Be prepared to start at…

"I’ve also always wondered to what extent math would be useful in law school."

I have a software engineering degree (not CS) first, and then put myself through law school part time while working as a programmer, so I have some insight in this. In short, it's completely useless; even programming skills are useless. There are some highly specific (patent) positions where having a technical background combined with law 'pays off'; although if you look at the opportunity cost and the premium you're paid, it's not all that great (and writing patents is incredibly tedious; for litigation, tech skills count for bupkis).

Even for thinks where you'd think having a technical background would matter (IP lawyer, computer crime/forensics legal consultant, cybercrime DA), your tech knowledge is useless. The vast majority of the work there is legal, and the little bit of tech needed is easily explained by a consultant with no knowledge of the legal aspects.

I know (of) quite a few tech/law combo grads (it's actually not all that uncommon), and very few of them manage to synergistically apply both in a career. Those that do, do so because of a third (communication/self-marketing) skill; more than having any technology background.

So, in short: law degree is fun, but don't count on it being anything but a hobby (when combined with tech career).

(oh, I also know a mathematician who's now teaching at a law faculty; he does research on computational ethics and philosophy, that sort of thing. Intellectually very interesting, but 0 real world applicability - in other words, bound to academia - for better or for worse).

Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between mech and industrial?

Mechanical engineers make things, industrial engineers make things better. The discipline started in the 1900s mostly concerned with improving manufacturing efficiency and cost. Now it has grown to improve all facets of product quality and business process (physical and digital). It is one of the best disciplines to use applied math. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_engineering

Industrial engineers work on production processes. You can't make a bridge better without fully "grokking" the physics behind the original design. It isn't exactly amenable to incremental improvement.

Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#93
post #53

I have a PhD in maths (applied, though most of my undergraduate was pure), and lectured for a couple of years before moving to a bigger city and deciding to break out of the academic hamster wheel. My wife already had a job secured, so I had the opportunity to be a little patient. This really paid off. I considered many of the types of jobs mentioned by others. Analyst / tech-consultant jobs didn't seem technically i…

wow, graz!

Srsly that sounds really nice and very similar what i would love to do.

Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, exactly. Be wary of staying too long - then you may not have much to (publicly) show for years of work.

Not something you'd need to worry about, since you won't get fired from there.

Making yourself illiquid is also a way to cut short your career options. Should you have a shift in life priorities you may find yourself wishing to work somewhere that you cannot. Everyone should be able to say something about their work.

Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#95
post #65
post #53

I have a PhD in maths (applied, though most of my undergraduate was pure), and lectured for a couple of years before moving to a bigger city and deciding to break out of the academic hamster wheel. My wife already had a job secured, so I had the opportunity to be a little patient. This really paid off. I considered many of the types of jobs mentioned by others. Analyst / tech-consultant jobs didn't seem technically i…

That's interesting, my PhD is in an engineering field and projects have included a lot of what you mentioned ('graph theory, markov chains, ... cluster analysis and signal processing'...). I just went through a job search and couldn't find anyone very interested in these skills, so I'm back in another postdoc. Any advice on companies/industries specific to those types of methods?

There are a lot of interesting problems in vehicle routing, route optimisation and GPS data processing. There often aren't good libraries which solve them with enough flexibility and performance, and better algorithms are being researched and published all the time. Thus it's quite common for companies to develop in house solutions. A blog post by food delivery comoany Ocado [0] was posted on HN a while back, and I'm sure companies like CityMapper and Strava that work with maps (as well as Google and Bing of course) are constantly trying to improve their algorithms.

[0] https://ocadotechnology.com/blog/ocado-internet-of-vans/

Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#96
post #71

Off topic: one of my secret regrets in life is that I am not smart enough to be a mathematician. I watch the popular channels, I read about the new discoveries, I drunkenly explain some of the fancy concepts to my friends after the fourth beer. I wish I could understand higher mathematics.

Disclaimer: I am a graduate student in EECS, and not math. In particular, I am not a professional mathematician.

At some level, none of us is smart enough to understand higher mathematics (in its entirety). Some illustrations (for which references are easy to obtain via a web search):

1. John von Neumann, in his time, said that he understood 28% of mathematics (no idea where he got that specific number from). Given the 20th century explosion of mathematics, largely driven by the professionalization of mathematics and the drive from the nation state, I can't think of anyone today who can truthfully answer > 5%.

2. One of the favorite, semi-secret pastimes of mathematicians is ranking other mathematicians, e.g is so and so a "first rate, second tier mathematician" or a "second rate, first tier mathematician", etc. The funny thing is that this ranking does not end: Fields medallists fall below the "inner circle" of Fields medallists (who e.g won the Abel prize as well), but even they look up to people universally recognized as singular, but who are no longer alive - popular favorites being Euler and Gauss.

A far more modest task is understanding some aspect of mathematics that one finds immensely fascinating. Fascination and enthusiasm are by far the most critical pre-requisites; without them one can't go far. Often what makes a field of mathematics difficult (at least in popular perception), say algebraic geometry for a stereotype, is the lack of familiarity with the language of it. Language takes time to seep into our brains. Some people can do this far faster than others, and hence appear as "geniuses" when they absorb things without much observable effort.

But that does not make it impossible for others; it usually just means more effort over a longer duration.

There is also a pattern to how mathematics operates. Enough exposure to a variety of topics will demonstrate that many famous, deep theorems, are at their core built out of (in retrospect!) simple, natural ideas - ideas so natural that one can come up with everyday analogs of them. In fact, in a highly simplified sense, most proofs at their heart involve what many would call "high school" manipulations (e.g a lot of arguments in real analysis involve what many call a "3 \epsilon" trick). Yes, there are subtleties involved, and a lot of effort sometimes needs to expended to complete arguments, but the same is true of various fields, including programming/software engineering (just look at the evolution of Unix from the original If one wants something concrete that can be appreciated by many on this forum, consider:

1. http://www.math.ucla.edu/~pak/lectures/Math-Videos/comb-vide... - Igor Pak's excellent archive of combinatorics videos; many of which are for a pretty general audience.

2. Federico Ardila's courses, see above for links; also see https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematician-federico-ardila... If one checks the course websites of his offerings, there are tiny blurbs with some info about the students of his courses. Many come from quite non-traditional backgrounds, and a non-negligible fraction of them end up doing interesting research.

3. "The Princeton Companion to Mathematics" and/or its sister "The Princeton Companion to Applied Mathematics" - these books do a fantastic job of giving a bird's eye view of the essential unity of mathematics, and can be excellent starting points for diving into a topic suited to one's interests.

Lastly, mathematicians themselves do not always understand what they are doing/have done - otherwise generalizations/refinements that take many years to come up with would have happened much faster. This is especially the case when they (in retrospect!) are breaking seriously new ground, and are thus probing far into the dark. Gauss's earliest proof of quadratic reciprocity used induction on the primes; a technique, although useful, is far from most "modern" treatments; and is arguably not the best way to "understand" it. In von Neumann's words: "Young man, in mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them."

Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#97
I'm a mechanical engineer with strong minors in applied computational mathematics and scientific computing, and math has been, for me, a super-power. It opens all kinds of thermal, structural analyst jobs. I can optimize all kinds of stuff. I can automate simulations and plot the results in ways that the non-technical can get a good idea of the right direction to go. That all comes from math.

Can you hand-code a solver for Maxwells equations or Navier-Stokes (lid-driven cavity flow)? That opens electronics and thermo-fluids. How are you with classic and singular perturbation methods? That gives you signal integrity at Intel - they pay pretty well. Get a few languages under your belt - icky things that are gold plated. MatLab, LabVIEW, Python, SQL, and C. That gives you most of mechanical engineering, lab-based data collection, tons of current "data science", being able to work with previous content, and making your code go really fast, respectively.

Try not looking for jobs on monster, or dice or such. Get friendly with a technical recruiter at Manpower Technical and ask them to get you a few decent contract positions to help you both return some excellent value, and to grow your professional breadth. Make sure some of the positions are business, production, design, and leadership in that order. If you do leadership first without the others, you are wasting yourself.

Read a few books on how to negotiate salary. Your earnings at age 25 determine your total lifetime earnings, so if you let yourself get low-balled early, it can cost you a few million in total lifetime earning. You don't want that.

Once of my heroes is Karl Kempf. Read what he, applied mathematician that he is, has done. He returns a defensible $8 billion per year every year in new value to his company. He is someone to emulate.

Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mechanical engineers make things, industrial engineers make things better. The discipline started in the 1900s mostly concerned with improving manufacturing efficiency and cost. Now it has grown to improve all facets of product quality and business process (physical and digital). It is one of the best disciplines to use applied math. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_engineering

Industrial engineers work on production processes. You can't make a bridge better without fully "grokking" the physics behind the original design. It isn't exactly amenable to incremental improvement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8UePdbDmMw This was one of the keynote speakers at the 2015 IISE National Convention. Nancy Currie was/is works for NASA and has education in Industrial Engineering. She worked extensively investigating the Columbia space shuttle incident. Her involvement shows how industrial engineers participated in making space flight safer / better. It's really not grokking the physics that can make things better. Excellent presentation.

Re: Ask HN: Who hires mathematicians?

#99
post #55

Not me, that's for sure. I interviewed two maths phd's years ago, who wanted to get out of academia because they felt themselves above chasing grant money, but then didn't want to do anything that wasn't their phd topic or related (of which I didn't even understand what it was, and they couldn't explain, or give examples of what it could be used for). On the other hand, I did hire people who studied maths in programm…

That was my experience. All my math degree ever did was mildly impress potential recruiters, but I had to learn how to code things unrelated to mathematics to get a job.

The only job I was able to get as a mathematician "outside" of academia was a brief stint teaching high school mathematics. Which was fun and I would do again if the pay were higher.

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