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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#81

Post by barsonme »

BatFastard wrote: post #58
thrden wrote: post #23

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of…

One things Marijuana legalization has done is decrease opioid usage in states that have legalized it. It has also reduced drunk driving rates. Of course taxes are nice, and removing the money from the underworld is a big win too.

> It has also reduced drunk driving rates.

What happened to the overall DUI rates, though?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#82

Post by Noos »

Probably because it would be a massive cost, on the level of a nationwide program to eliminate homelessness. And the portugal model doesn't seem to really wean people off drugs, unlike homelessness, so it's just endless money being funneled into maintaining addicts, which in time will keep growing since drug use is legal.

We'd probably run out of money if we tried.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#83

Post by toomanybeersies »

briandear wrote: post #59
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

Any citation on fewer handguns, fewer deaths? Violent crime actually increased in the UK after they banned guns despite near simultaneous expansion of police funding. These issues aren’t as simple as you might imply. The demographics of Sweden are different than those of Chicago or Matamoros. Conroe, Texas has very high gun ownership and very low violent crime. New York has very low gun ownership and relatively low v…

Here's a study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3828709/

> Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%.

Firearms ownership rate doesn't correlate directly to firearms crime rates, but the change in ownership does.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#84

Post by LoonyBalloony »

rectang wrote: post #3

Because moral vanity is more addictive and destructive than any chemical substance.

"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone. To be able to destroy with good conscience, to be able to behave badly and call your bad behavior 'righteous indignation' — this is the height of psychological luxury, the most delicious of moral treats."

- Aldous Huxley

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#85

Post by toomanybeersies »

r00fus wrote: post #79
briandear wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any citation on fewer handguns, fewer deaths? Violent crime actually increased in the UK after they banned guns despite near simultaneous expansion of police funding. These issues aren’t as simple as you might imply. The demographics of Sweden are different than those of Chicago or Matamoros. Conroe, Texas has very high gun ownership and very low violent crime. New York has very low gun ownership and relatively low v…

Hmm - do you have a cite on your claims about the UK? It's hardly fair to ask for citations when you give none.

Strictly speaking, Mexico has the lowest cancer rate (not death rate) of the OECD, so the USA should emulate them for healthcare.

On the flip side, Denmark has the highest cancer rate, so they must be doing something wrong.

The alternative explanation is that people in Mexico generally die before they can get cancer.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#86

Post by thomasfortes »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #80
gardenhose23 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of those countries don't treat drugs anywhere near like the way the US does. Switzerland in fact has a system very similar to what is described in this article. Methadone (and even in some cases heroin) is readily dispensed to those in need. You aren't going to end up with a 10 year sentence for possessing hard drugs, you'll be helped.

And plenty of countries without private prisons or large alcohol & tobacco companies or "slave labor" treat drugs way worse than the US. My point isn't that "countries all treat things exactly the same". My point is that the OP's alleged reasons don't really hold up once you abandon a myopic US-centric view and actually look at other countries.

With the exception of the ones with insane politics involving execution, dictatorships or the ones that have a harsh posture because of religious motives, I can't find a single one that has a war on drugs at the same level as the United States, can you point me to some sources about democratic countries that are worse than the United States on this specific point?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#87

Post by lb1lf »

fabrice_d wrote: post #37
thrden wrote: post #23

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of…

The benefit of legalizing marijuana is not to decrease usage but to cut financing to dealers. It is also safer for users, and reduces the risk to exposure to more dangerous drugs.

In addition to reducing exposure to more dangerous drugs, it would make harder drugs safer by ensuring they were of known potency and purity - after all, hard drugs distributed illegally are diluted with just about any substance available.

While hard drugs will never be good for you as such, we can do a lot to reduce the consequences of taking them by ensuring addicts have access to drugs of farmaceutical quality.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#88

Post by InclinedPlane »

Criminal justice in the western world is substantially based on the (faulty) premise of retributive punishment. Not rehabilitation, not harm reduction, vengeance. That has a ton of negative consequences. It means that prisons are horrid and destroy people rather than building them back up to a state worthy of re-entering civilized society. It means that the police are encouraged to dispense street justice extra-judicially (even up to executions) because it is part and parcel of the spectrum of "hurting the bad guys". It means that addicts are punished and harmed by the system for the sin of being vulnerable and falling victim to a common "vice". It's not about science, it's about feeling what is "right" and "just". Bit by bit we've occasionally made some improvements and injected some humanity into this brutally inhumane process, but we're still scraping by at medieval levels of justice. In the US more than 95% of executions by the criminal justice system happen on the street without a trial. And, of course, addiction is treated as a crime instead of a public health concern, to the detriment of all.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#90

Post by arca_vorago »

The nastier side of this elephant in the room is that three letters in general, the CIA in particular, really dislike the fact that congress holds their purse strings, so by creating and then dominating a black market, they can generate money off the books with no congressional oversight for those black projects and whatever other unconstitutional fad of the day is.

The CIA learned this all the way back in its OSS days from the Brits who have been doing it since before the first opium wars in China, the scars of which which can still be seen to this day. It doesn't matter the black market (prohibition for example) just that you control it.

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