Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 545 posts

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#71

Post by gardenhose23 »

derefr wrote: post #69
bob_theslob646 wrote: post #38

>Portugal’s remarkable recovery, and the fact that it has held steady through several changes in government – including conservative leaders who would have preferred to return to the US-style war on drugs – could not have happened without an enormous cultural shift, and a change in how the country viewed drugs, addiction – and itself. In many ways, the law was merely a reflection of transformations that were already…

That wasn't the question, though. Why has no other country copied it—for example, a social-welfare state like Sweden, or a technocracy like Singapore?

Switzerland has.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#72

Post by wdewind »

nkurz wrote: post #66
wdewind wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot here that needs to be picked apart. Here are the major things you're missing: 1. Marijuana has been researched extensively and its health effects are at worst similar to alcohol, at best significantly less bad for you. In that context it makes sense to think of marijuana as a consumer product, and it makes sense that requiring a consumer product be sold in a dangerous and unregulated way would reduce de…

I rarely downvote clear and well-written comments just because I disagree with them, but feel I need to make an exception here. Your "1" is true, but you prefaced it by claiming that it was one of the "major things" the parent was missing. I'm pretty sure he wasn't missing this, as indicated by the sentence "This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana". Number "2" adds useful distinctions regard…

> Your "1" is true, but you prefaced it by claiming that it was one of the "major things" the parent was missing. I'm pretty sure he wasn't missing this, as indicated by the sentence "This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana".

I think the thing OP's post was missing is that the distinction is important: we wouldn't expect the same trend to carry over to things that are not "benign," like hard drugs.

> This is tautologically true if you define addiction as mental illness, but would you really claim that no one regularly uses heroin because they became addicted to after starting with prescription painkillers, rather that they use it regularly only because they have an underlying non-drug related mental illness?

So, yes, this does happen, but no I don't think it's really a significant cause of drug addiction in the United States: https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/a3z98b/big-pharma-didnt...

Otherwise, yes, I am arguing the vast majority (or maybe all?) people who are drug addicts have some underlying mental illness, and I don't disagree that is tautological: that's kind of the point. Truthfully I don't think we have the data but I also wouldn't be shocked to see a large portion of the people who become addicted to prescribed painkillers and then end up using heroin afterwards come into the injury and prescription with some kind of mental illness which predisposes them to addiction. Ie: you are a construction worker, you are depressed, you hurt your back, you get on painkillers and it escalates from there. But the vast majority of people prescribed these drugs do not become addicted to them and I think that's telling.

But really, that doesn't matter to me, the only thing I'm really looking for is a classification of people who are addicts, however they got that way, as "sick" instead of as "criminals." Again: let's not put people in cages unless we absolutely have to.

Which brings me to the other distinction number 2 adds which is that Portugal's approach is decriminalization not legalization, like with Colorado and marijuana.

So there are at least two distinct ways in which the Colorado Marijuana situation don't apply.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#73

Post by eitland »

rblatz wrote: post #64
toomanybeersies wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that something as harmful as heroin should be legal to sell, even in a taxed and regulated scenario. Other options that, in my amateur opinion, would be better, would be to more heavily penalise adultered drugs, or to have pharmacies supply, with a prescription, addictive drugs, but only to addicts. The latter idea is basically an extension of safe injection clinics.

There are multiple drugs of the same class as heroin that are actually stronger and more dangerous than heroin that are legal. But they aren’t sold cut to hell with fillers in order to make extra money.

They are also only sold with a prescription.

And while I know US has an opioid crisis this prescription thing seems to work here.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#74

Post by derefr »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #49
andrewstuart wrote: post #41

Portugal’s policy is deeply flawed because it does not legalize the sale of all drugs, only the consumption. When selling is legal is when organized crime leaves the picture, taxes can be collected, product is clean and measured and of quality. Both sides of the equation are important to legalize, doing one without the other means huge problems remain.

I don't think that something as harmful as heroin should be legal to sell, even in a taxed and regulated scenario. Other options that, in my amateur opinion, would be better, would be to more heavily penalise adultered drugs, or to have pharmacies supply, with a prescription, addictive drugs, but only to addicts. The latter idea is basically an extension of safe injection clinics.

It doesn't have to be sold to the end-consumer; but it does have to make a profit for the producer/distributor (e.g. one of the big pharma companies) if you want to disincentivize the black-market producers. Probably this would mean that the government itself buys the drugs from the pharma companies, and then gives them away for free to prescribed+registered users. It's the fact that the pharma company has someone to profit by selling the drugs to, that incentivizes clean/pure/safely dosed drugs to be produced.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#75

Post by abtom »

> “There was a point whenyou could not find a single Portuguese family that wasn’t affected. Every family had their addict, or addicts. This was universal in a way that the society felt: ‘We have to do something.’”

To be noted is when is it more useful to decriminalise, compared to conventional methods? I would say there is a point, say 5% or 10% population already users when it becomes more beneficial to decriminalise. This works because most of the society has already seen the problems associated with drug use. Anything before that (say 0.1% of population are users) and you may end up encouraging non-users since the legalisation may be seen as a form of approval from the state that there is nothing wrong with drug use.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#77

Post by justrobert »

eitland wrote: post #73
rblatz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple drugs of the same class as heroin that are actually stronger and more dangerous than heroin that are legal. But they aren’t sold cut to hell with fillers in order to make extra money.

They are also only sold with a prescription. And while I know US has an opioid crisis this prescription thing seems to work here.

Except anyone can buy fent online easily.

Far more dangerous for anyone who is near those that buy it.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#78

Post by stefanfisk »

derefr wrote: post #69
bob_theslob646 wrote: post #38

>Portugal’s remarkable recovery, and the fact that it has held steady through several changes in government – including conservative leaders who would have preferred to return to the US-style war on drugs – could not have happened without an enormous cultural shift, and a change in how the country viewed drugs, addiction – and itself. In many ways, the law was merely a reflection of transformations that were already…

That wasn't the question, though. Why has no other country copied it—for example, a social-welfare state like Sweden, or a technocracy like Singapore?

In Sweden’s case it’s because we - as a nation - view non state sanctioned drug use in any form as a moral failing, rather than medical one. Lethality among heavy drug users is really high compared to Central European countries, and politicians think that’s fine as long as the stats for how many people have used drugs in any capacity look good.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#79

Post by r00fus »

briandear wrote: post #59
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

Any citation on fewer handguns, fewer deaths? Violent crime actually increased in the UK after they banned guns despite near simultaneous expansion of police funding. These issues aren’t as simple as you might imply. The demographics of Sweden are different than those of Chicago or Matamoros. Conroe, Texas has very high gun ownership and very low violent crime. New York has very low gun ownership and relatively low v…

Hmm - do you have a cite on your claims about the UK? It's hardly fair to ask for citations when you give none.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#80

Post by freddie_mercury »

gardenhose23 wrote: post #70
freddie_mercury wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that things work differently outside of the US yet most foreign countries still haven't adopted it suggests that none of your purported reasons are the primary cause. They almost certainly are tiny things with very small marginal contributions when countries as varied as Russia, Australia, Sweden, Poland, Singapore, and Switzerland -- who don't have of the factors you mention -- also have failed to follow Po…

Many of those countries don't treat drugs anywhere near like the way the US does. Switzerland in fact has a system very similar to what is described in this article. Methadone (and even in some cases heroin) is readily dispensed to those in need. You aren't going to end up with a 10 year sentence for possessing hard drugs, you'll be helped.

And plenty of countries without private prisons or large alcohol & tobacco companies or "slave labor" treat drugs way worse than the US.

My point isn't that "countries all treat things exactly the same". My point is that the OP's alleged reasons don't really hold up once you abandon a myopic US-centric view and actually look at other countries.

Post reply on HN