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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#51

Post by berbec »

yosito wrote: post #5

Because drug policy is about associating your political opponents with criminal activity and has nothing to do with preventing drug abuse or addiction.

I do believe you've hit the nail on the head there. It seems one of the big initial reasons for calling cannibis marijuana and criminalization was part of racist legislation against Hispanics.

'Numerous accounts say that "marijuana" came into popular usage in the U.S. in the early 20th century because anti-cannabis factions wanted to underscore the drug's "Mexican-ness."' [1]

1: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2013/07/14/201981025...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#52

Post by wdewind »

thrden wrote: post #23

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of…

There's a lot here that needs to be picked apart. Here are the major things you're missing:

1. Marijuana has been researched extensively and its health effects are at worst similar to alcohol, at best significantly less bad for you. In that context it makes sense to think of marijuana as a consumer product, and it makes sense that requiring a consumer product be sold in a dangerous and unregulated way would reduce demand for that product. Under these conditions we can expect legalization to increase demand, and it has.

2. Portugal's policy is decriminalization not legalization, and its success has not really been about soft drugs, it's been about hard drugs. People who do not have some kind of mental illness do not use hard drugs frequently for the same reason people without mental illness do not drink bleach: it's bad for you and if you care about yourself self-preservation is important. Portugal's solution is about the people who don't or are unable to care for themselves, and recognizing that the drug use is a symptom of that, and that you cannot fix the underlying mental issue by putting people in cages. Their solution is not "stop doing anything and fully legalize," it's "require people to be treated" instead of "require people to sit in a cage." Under these conditions we can expect decriminalization to decrease demand, and it has.

Edit: Also, I do very much agree with your larger point re: overconsumption, and I'm not saying we should ignore that problem either. Mental health in this country is a disaster, I just don't think putting people in cages is the solution.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#53

Post by drewmol »

meri_dian wrote: post #18
sfRattan wrote: post #10

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair That's about it really. There are a whole lot of people across the world whose salaries depend on an unending drug war.

That thought doesn't really capture the reason. It applies in some circumstances but not this one. In a republic, people are only paid to enforce restrictive drug policy because the people want them to. Most people look at the issue in simple terms. "Drugs are bad, so keep them away from people". Legalization is a counterintuitive way to lower incidence of use and addiction, it will take a lot to convince people it i…

>puts the cart before the horse.

to put the cart before the horse is an analogy for doing things in the wrong order.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#54

Post by loeg »

fabrice_d wrote: post #37
thrden wrote: post #23

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of…

The benefit of legalizing marijuana is not to decrease usage but to cut financing to dealers. It is also safer for users, and reduces the risk to exposure to more dangerous drugs.

Dealers are fine (after all, consumers aren't expected to grow it all themselves); the problem is the flow of money back to the cartels.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#55

Post by berbec »

krisives wrote: post #30
brokenmachine wrote: post #6

Because the US prison industry policy is working as desired.

Uniforms, food, beds, etc. all of very poor quality being sold at high margin. Policing for profit essentially.

Dont forget the private, for-profit prisons themselves. If there ever was an industry that didn't need a profit motive...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#56

Post by loeg »

ekianjo wrote: post #42
thrden wrote: post #23

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of…

> we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage Isn't that a desirable thing from a government standpoint? More tax income from legal sales? The point to legalize something is that you put some controls in place to know where and how, and at what quality it's being sold, not to have its consumption decrease.

Opponents would argue the inverse: We criminalize something to have its consumption decrease. So the idea that consumption would rise if legalized means to people of that mindset that the status quo is working. (I don't share this view.)

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#58

Post by BatFastard »

thrden wrote: post #23

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of…

One things Marijuana legalization has done is decrease opioid usage in states that have legalized it. It has also reduced drunk driving rates. Of course taxes are nice, and removing the money from the underworld is a big win too.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#59

Post by briandear »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

Any citation on fewer handguns, fewer deaths? Violent crime actually increased in the UK after they banned guns despite near simultaneous expansion of police funding.

These issues aren’t as simple as you might imply. The demographics of Sweden are different than those of Chicago or Matamoros. Conroe, Texas has very high gun ownership and very low violent crime. New York has very low gun ownership and relatively low violent crime.

Cancer death rates are higher in the UK compared to the US despite “universal” healthcare in the UK.

It’s naïve to draw simplistic cause-effect conclusions and it’s intellectually dishonest to suggest that policies that work in Lisbon would work at a similar level of success in Los Angeles.

To be clear, I am all for decriminalization of drugs, however suggesting that policies will have similar effects in different regions or countries is to ignore the thousands of other variables at play.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#60

Post by bsenftner »

andrewstuart wrote: post #39
thrden wrote: post #23

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of…

Where does the assumption come from that the idea is to decrease usage? I would expect drug usage to increase when legalized.

That expectation is purely based on anti-drug propaganda. In every published study, the legal availability of marijuana reduces usage of other, harder drugs. It even reduces usage of alcohol. It is in the statistics of study after study.
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