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Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#91

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

acqq wrote: post #74
nicky0 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But face data is not shared with apps for security/unlock purposes. Access to the live face data stream is provided for features like silly Snapchat filters ("turn your face into a lion" type crap) which the user may opt in to.

The problem is, apparently, the opt in question is "do you want to allow this app to use the camera" not "do you want to allow this app to use your face 3D measurements data."

I have a feeling that the average lay user might actually find the camera demand more invasive than 3D measurements. In one they'd feel that the application is getting their picture while in the other just some face contour blah blah.

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#92

Post by gpm »

eridius wrote: post #66
yeldarb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know there's no "Attention" API. It also seems intentional that Apple has omitted an eye-tracking API as well (even though it seems like that would be trivial for them to add from a technical perspective) Is there anything stopping them from doing this with the front-facing camera on existing phones?

Apple would probably reject apps that ask for camera access just to track user attention, and even if they didn't, asking for camera access in an app that doesn't have a reasonable reason to want it is a huge red flag and will get the app uninstalled by a lot of people.

So come up with some legitimate use for camera access (e.g. simple AR level in game) and also use it for ads?

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#93

Post by thisacctforreal »

zionic wrote: post #85
thisacctforreal wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just checked again: not for Discord. No idea about other apps owned by Tencent. It's notable Discord was developed as an American startup, and it's not clear what Tencent's involvement is. Regardless, for me it's too much access for a chat app to have in exchange for the convenince of sharing a photo from my phone.

A better solution would be for Apple to provide a decent photo picker that functions at the system level, and require a separate (special) permission to access all photos with the appropriate warning if that app needs a fancy dancy photo picker. Why do I need to give snapchat access to all photos ever just to post from my camera roll?

For the longest time that was how I thought it worked :/

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#94

Post by wahsd »

yeldarb wrote: post #13

I've been playing with the TrueDepth Camera APIs on the iPhone X. Some things I've noticed: 1) The ARKit "Face Mesh" seems to be a standard model that is scaled and skewed to fit your face (for example, it ignores glasses, still works if you put your hand in front of your face, etc). It is _not_ a 3D scan. 2) The "TrueDepth" data is not really all that granular. It seems similar to the depth map you get from the rear…

Your dystopian conclusion reminds me of the exposure of the NSA's facial recognition harvesting program in coordination with corporate partners like McDonalds. Ever drive through a McDonalds drive through and see that in your face camera? Say hello to the NSA.

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#95

Post by jacobwil »

zionic wrote: post #85
thisacctforreal wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just checked again: not for Discord. No idea about other apps owned by Tencent. It's notable Discord was developed as an American startup, and it's not clear what Tencent's involvement is. Regardless, for me it's too much access for a chat app to have in exchange for the convenince of sharing a photo from my phone.

A better solution would be for Apple to provide a decent photo picker that functions at the system level, and require a separate (special) permission to access all photos with the appropriate warning if that app needs a fancy dancy photo picker. Why do I need to give snapchat access to all photos ever just to post from my camera roll?

It already does work like this in iOS 11. Apps can present the System photo picker to you and receive only your selected photo while having their Photos access set to "Never".

If you want to try it out install the Wire messenger (if you make the account with a web browser you don't need to provide a phone number), and try to attach a photo but deny Photo library permissions. (Here's the buttons to press: https://imgur.com/a/gc5Iq). Other apps work this way on iOS 11 but this is the one that came to mind.

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#96

Post by yeldarb »

ozmbie wrote: post #80
yeldarb wrote: post #13

I've been playing with the TrueDepth Camera APIs on the iPhone X. Some things I've noticed: 1) The ARKit "Face Mesh" seems to be a standard model that is scaled and skewed to fit your face (for example, it ignores glasses, still works if you put your hand in front of your face, etc). It is _not_ a 3D scan. 2) The "TrueDepth" data is not really all that granular. It seems similar to the depth map you get from the rear…

>The lack of Animoji and front-facing ARKit seems to be a software limitation made for business reasons rather than a hardware limitation. The A11 chip has dedicated “neural engine” hardware which is used for Animoji and other facial recognition tasks. How much could be done in the standard CPU on other devices I’m not sure.

The iPhone 8 and 8+ have the same A11 chip as the iPhone X.

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#97

Post by musage »

philwelch wrote: post #43
mmjaa wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> .. could be scary. But I disagree that this has anything to do with the iPhone X or its TrueDepth camera. Well, lets just say there's the kind of scary fact that nobody, trustworthy, has audited this thing. Like, should a company that didn't run a "doesn't let root login on first-try" test be allowed to be making such wide-ranging decisions as face-scanning? What if I don't want to have my face scanned, but neverth…

> What if I don't want to have my face scanned, but nevertheless need to pick up somebody's lost-phone/detonation-device? Shall I just wear a mask? Well...yeah. If you're out in public and your face is visible, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

If you are an apologist for what is the equivalent of having hundreds of people in trenchcoats following every person on the planet, detailing their every public move and storing it forever, you don't have any reasonable expectation of your part in the documentary being underlaid with anything but sinister music.

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#98

Post by jpttsn »

pmontra wrote: post #75
_puk wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Once you give it permission, an active app keeps on having access to your face” Isn’t the definition of an active app, one that is open and in the foreground? The minute the phone sleeps, or the app is put into the background, access becomes more at Apple’s discretion. I’d expect an app running in the foreground to be able to keep using the camera as long as needed.. Or is your point more: allowing once allows it ev…

I have no direct experience of iOs but according to the post it's as you wrote. It could be an app that needs the camera once for some sensible reason, then it can use it forever when it's active even if it wouldn't need it from the point of view of the user.

Users might notice the battery penalty.

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#99

Post by adjkant »

zeep wrote: post #82
natch wrote: post #35

Let’s not jump to conclusions here based on assumptions and ignorance. What is likely being shared is a generic wireframe with pose and expression information. Not a face fingerprint as some are breathlessly calling it.

a precise wireframe could be as precise as a fingerprint... If it has a very high mesh count, it is just a high resolution 3D model of your face... much more information then what is required to face-id you look at this model for example, it has medium amount of mesh: http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/279553/1...

Not sure why this is being downed. I haven't looked into the details of this case, but the more detailed the wireframe mesh the faces are being fit to, the more possibilities there are, and the lower the likelihood of collisions between two people. Think of it as a hashmap with the number of buckets being determined by the mesh quality. At a certain point, a few collisions won't hinder apps from capitalizing on the information.

Re: Apple is sharing your facial wireframe with apps

#100

Post by valine »

yeldarb wrote: post #13

I've been playing with the TrueDepth Camera APIs on the iPhone X. Some things I've noticed: 1) The ARKit "Face Mesh" seems to be a standard model that is scaled and skewed to fit your face (for example, it ignores glasses, still works if you put your hand in front of your face, etc). It is _not_ a 3D scan. 2) The "TrueDepth" data is not really all that granular. It seems similar to the depth map you get from the rear…

I just tried using Animojis with the TrueDepth camera covered. After a second the frame rate drops significantly (to roughly 10 fps) and the character's eyes glitch out. I'm convinced Animojis are doing something with the TrueDepth hardware. It still tracks head movement with just the camera, but its significantly slower and more error prone.
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