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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#191

Post by Retra »

hueving wrote: post #169
Retra wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outcome of all that is that even insignificant people like you know that it happened and upset people. The alternative of protests that never happened certainly don't have your (or anybody else's) attention in nearly the same way, obviously.

That's the same outcome of terrorist attacks and massive ad campaigns. Hardly useful without an actual message. The only thing most people know about occupy wall street was that a bunch of people camped out for no particular reason.

> That's the same outcome of terrorist attacks and massive ad campaigns.

You mean those things that have changed the world in massive ways?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#192

Post by walshemj »

wavefunction wrote: post #60
walshemj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but as some one I know said about the 35 hour working "funny how its always the non French companies that got raided"

Why is it funny that these activists focus on foreign companies selling in France but not paying taxes on those sales? Seems perfectly understandable to me why foreign firms behaving like Apple would be the target.

Its an illustration the one rule for French companies / industries one for the foreigners whose ceos didn't goto ENA.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#193

Post by jinglebells »

nv-vn wrote: post #52
Thorncorona wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella. Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should. Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also multilaterally a…

Why shouldn't you avoid paying taxes? If it's legal and you get to make more money, I don't see the issue. Especially if you're using that money to make more positive change than the government could.

Fine if you don't use roads or the internet or anything else which was funded from tax payers money.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#194

Post by innocentoldguy »

StephenMelon wrote: post #147
innocentoldguy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying more just because a small group of people chanted in one of their stores for a while? Even if Apple is breaking the law, isn't it worth putting up with a handful of activists for a few hours if it saves them millions in taxes and makes their investors happy? I…

Apple’s most valuable asset is its brand. The brand values include good citizenship, disability awareness, eco-friendliness and diversity. Appearing to be money-grabbing corporate assholes could cause them real damage, so protests absolutely can have an effect.

Why would you have that perception? Apple has said repeatedly that they are happy to pay what they legally owe, and that the issue is simply a matter of where they owe, not how much. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#195

Post by matt_wulfeck »

StephenMelon wrote: post #155
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$9 billion in taxes. You can't please everybody.

Are you implying that you’d be happy for a corporation to pay minimal tax, as long as the amount paid sounded like a large number?

I’m saying lashing out at a company that’s paying 9 billion in taxes as “stealing” is short-sighted. Especially if you’re going to make that your public activist stunt.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#196

Post by rsj_hn »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58
realusername wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Value is only created when you sell products, not when you create them (and especially not in R&D which is gamble cost for most companies), otherwise all the startups would be rich. If there would be no value creation in France, Apple would not have any business there.

Ridiculous, how would that even work? Profit is “sales - expenses.” So how would Apple account for the R&D in the states, or does Apple France just want to tax them assuming all the inputs don’t exist? That’s why Apple USA sells iPhones to Apple France at some price above hardware production costs. It doesn’t make sense any other way. Value isn’t created on sale, it is only realized as money at that point.

Welcome to the world of tax avoidance. For example, if the software is assigned to a subsidiary in the Isle of Man, which "licenses" the use of the software to Google France, then Google France in the high tax jurisdiction pays these licensing fees to Google Isle of Man, shifting profits from the high tax to the low tax jurisdiction. This is one of many tricks available.

See this Forbes' article on transfer pricing as tax avoidance:

https://www.forbes.com/2010/06/24/tax-finance-multinational-...

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#197

Post by evgen »

dingo_bat wrote: post #181
evgen wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then Apple stops selling in France and continues to sell in Belgium, Germany, Spain, etc and people drive them into France by the truckload. Or Amazon just delivers them via post. No taxes to France at all. Problem solved.

That's ok. I'm sure sales will take a substantial hit if people cannot walk into a store and buy it. I mean there's a reason Apple sells directly in France, right?

Substantial? I doubt it. While Apple does a lot of retail volume, the big money-makers like the iPhone can be drop-shipped from anywhere in the EU. There are 20 Apple stores in France, but millions of iPhones there; I doubt more than 20% of French iPhone users purchased at an Apple store, and probably closer to 5%.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#198

Post by rapind »

mschuster91 wrote: post #183
rapind wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't disagree more. In my experience, complexity breeds corruption whereas simplicity exposes it. For example, how would you game a flat tax?

> For example, how would you game a flat tax? Imagine a car manufacturer, headquartered in Germany where all of the R&D happens, and most sales outside of Germany. Germany has invested lots of money into its education system so that the car manufacturer has a very large pool of talented and qualified personnel, but with a cash flow tax the manufacturer pays the most of his taxes in the respective countries, thus depr…

Whereas I think charging one person 20% and another person 50% is unfair. Is the person paying 50% using public services that much more?

Maybe there's an argument to be had for a forced charity fee, but that can be accomplished with one flat deduction across the board (say 50k). Again a simple rule that applies to everyone equally. H&R Block will hate it.

A flat tax is simple, more fair, and efficient. Plus it's pretty hard to dodge when there are no loopholes / 50 different forms to fill out and process.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#200

Post by dingo_bat »

evgen wrote: post #197
dingo_bat wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's ok. I'm sure sales will take a substantial hit if people cannot walk into a store and buy it. I mean there's a reason Apple sells directly in France, right?

Substantial? I doubt it. While Apple does a lot of retail volume, the big money-makers like the iPhone can be drop-shipped from anywhere in the EU. There are 20 Apple stores in France, but millions of iPhones there; I doubt more than 20% of French iPhone users purchased at an Apple store, and probably closer to 5%.

> Substantial? I doubt it.

It must be, otherwise why would Apple even have a retail channel in France? I think the number would be closer to 50%. Keep in mind that iphones are purchased at all sorts of retailers apart from istores.

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