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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#171

Post by matwood »

humanrebar wrote: post #61
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back ro…

> I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more.

I agree. I feel like many of the protests are more along the lines of 'this company makes a lot of money so they should pay more taxes, regardless of the current law'. As a society we would get a lot further along making real changes if we protested the government who a) put these complexities in place and b) who seem to lack the will to change. In the end, a single corporation making a lot of money is easier to hate, rather than understanding all the backroom deals/lobbying to get the complexity added in the first place.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#172

Post by hueving »

nojvek wrote: post #131
StudentStuff wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a country that doesn't treat it workers worse than trash, retail workers don't get screwed out of pay when their employer cancels their shift on the same day due to protests over their abhorrent practices internationally. Here in America, workers are trash as far as our society is concerned. Work harder! Ask for less!

And pay more taxes while the rich get giant cuts

Doubling the standard deduction results in tax breaks for the working class.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#173

Post by evgen »

dingo_bat wrote: post #163

How hard is it to solve the tax problem? France should abolish all income taxes, and put a 100% sales tax on iphone. Problem solved. Apple can dodge as much income taxes as they want.

Then Apple stops selling in France and continues to sell in Belgium, Germany, Spain, etc and people drive them into France by the truckload. Or Amazon just delivers them via post. No taxes to France at all. Problem solved.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#174

Post by hueving »

StephenMelon wrote: post #145
vixen99 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'évasion fiscale' has to be tax evasion not tax avoidance which implies legally minimizing a tax bill which is what every rational organization and person does.

You mean what every rational organisation and person that are already rich enough to hire a “creative” accountant does?

And what every person in the US does who takes a deduction.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#175

Post by hueving »

microtonal wrote: post #108
downandout wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you voluntarily pay more taxes than you are legally obligated to? Purposely fail to take deductions etc? Hopefully you’re walking the walk since you’re saying things like this.

The problem is that you can only make use of loopholes if you are large enough. You need foreign entities, an army of lawyers, etc. Consequently, rich companies can use loopholes, but the smaller local companies that they are competing with cannot use the same loopholes. Secondly, you would be surprised, there enough people who don't deduct everything possible. There are also enough people who don't take the cheapest…

The green energy comparison is not apt because there isn't an ethical amount of taxes to pay. With green energy you are trying to minimize non renewable consumption.

What is the ethical amount of tax deductions to take? All, some, or none of the ones offered by the tax law?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#176

Post by hueving »

microtonal wrote: post #110
savanaly wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) what everyone else said, it's impossible to draw the line between what ordinary people do in all tax paying nations, i.e. look with a keen eye at all the possible deductions and tax incentives available to them in order to minimize how much they pay, and what huge corporations like Apple do which is essentially the same but with a multitude more laws and lawyers. b) even if you could draw the line and somehow say…

even if you could draw the line and somehow say Apple was doing something "more evil" than normal tax avoidance, what's the point in petitioning the corporation to stop doing that? A corporation is sort of a money-hungry optimization machine without a soul and the outcome you get with it depends on the environment it exists in, as a matter of mechanical logic. Simple: brand value. Apple likes to be associated with: p…

It's not tax evasion if they are following the law.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#177

Post by throwaway_f8ed »

microtonal wrote: post #111
geomark wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another side that says that taxes themselves are immoral given that they are paid as a result of coersion. So no, not done.

Western Europe consists of modern welfare states. This is the model that we, Europeans, chose democratically over the span of decades or even centuries. In a welfare state, people and companies that are better off pay (more) taxes to support welfare, education, infrastructure, etc. Apple doesn't get to decide for us what our collective moral values are. If they don't like them, they should stop doing business in Euro…

This comment comes off as extremely offensive. You are basically saying that you, European people, democratically and unilaterally chose that you can extort people at gunpoint to make better living for yourself, parasiting on other peoples work.

I wouldn't exactly call these values "moral".

Apple should just pull out from Europe.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#178

Post by wavefunction »

usr1106 wrote: post #119
valuearb wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.

Taxes in France have been collected in Euros since the beginning of 2002.

Why are the sales booked through shell companies in countries outside of France then?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#179

Post by rapind »

mschuster91 wrote: post #153
humanrebar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back ro…

> I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. The problem is: the simpler the tax code, the easier it is to game. There's a reason why tax codes are universally huge and complex, and it's not just because of politicians giving tax favors to their donors.

I couldn't disagree more. In my experience, complexity breeds corruption whereas simplicity exposes it.

For example, how would you game a flat tax?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#180

Post by ringtail »

westiseast wrote: post #78
PrimalDual wrote: post #36

Pardon my ignorance but I thought Apple largely obeyed the law. Shouldn’t these people be protesting the government that fails to tax Apple justly?

Ireland allowed Apple a loophole where they were incorporated there, but non-resident, and therefore no tax. It was a sweetheart deal and Ireland got jobs and investment. The EU said no, wants the back tax to be paid.

The rule applied to every company. Its not even hard. Its as simple as it can get.

Hows that state aid ?

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