Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 143 posts

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#111

Post by Mary-Jane »

rtpg wrote: post #85
krona wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poverty rate as a percentage hasn't really changed since the mid 1960's, so I'm not sure what your point is. I'd much rather be in poverty in 2017 than in 1960.

in the 60 years since 1960 we have somehow been unable to bring everyone out of poverty despite the massive increase in productivity we've seen? Meanwhile the gap between the richest and poorest person has grown immensely, and real wages have stagnated for 30 years. Sure, everyone has an iPhone, but there's a universe where everyone has an iPhone and almost nobody is underwater. And we actively choose to not be in it…

Our legal definition of poverty is floating and generally translates to "the bottom 30 percent", so of course we haven't seen a drop!

This definition is problematic, not just because it makes the people pointing it out look like in-compassionate jerks, it obscures the real problems many people in poverty have and makes their causes harder to understand and address. It also gives many an excuse to dismiss the poor because, "the government is giving iPhones to them; they're problems can't be that bad."

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#112

Post by EGreg »

gaius wrote: post #102
EGreg wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing the problem, not the solution. If all people have to run to the ATM faster than they take a piss so they can buy food then making payments digital is an immediate improvement. But that's just the first part. Did you read the part about issuing 2X the amount of currency to your own people for every X you issue to pay back foreign interests? I want substantive feedback on my UBI proposal!

That's again inflationary - because each unit of currency is worth less. Money is not wealth, its a token of exchange for wealth. Your proposal is akin to educating a country by "issuing" degree certificates at a certain rate, completely ignoring if anyone is learning anything.

I didn't argue that it wasn't inflationary. Right at the outset I described inflation.

Did you actually read the rest of my post? I asked about something completely different.

You seem to be saying people who don't have enough money at a given moment should starve. The difference with your example of degree certificates is that they are not basic necessities needed for survival.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#113

Post by mmirate »

foldr wrote: post #86
mmirate wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The richest people have produced orders of magnitude more value than those under the poverty line. And yes I'm talking about value for their customers. You know, the people who paid for their products and thereby made them rich.

Then Venezuela is a success too, by your definition. Its poor are not "producing value", and hence are poor.

That's only half of it; are the rich producing value? or stealing it instead?

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#114

Post by yorwba »

thesmallestcat wrote: post #83
RubenSandwich wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. If governments are invested in changing opinions on other Internet forums, why not here? These comments are very low quality and seem to me to be writen to stir up political screaming matches, not actual debate.

Well, they've succeeded, if "need a safe space?" is upvoted and my reply calling that commenter out is heavily downvoted, why even try to discuss current affairs on HN? Let the trolls roll in their shit. Fighting with pigs in mud, etc. etc.

To be honest, if the only response you have to a comment is to call them a troll, you should remember your own advice: Let the trolls roll in their shit. Do not engage. Downvote, flag and move on. The mods will sort things out for you.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#115

Post by mmirate »

EGreg wrote: post #112
gaius wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's again inflationary - because each unit of currency is worth less. Money is not wealth, its a token of exchange for wealth. Your proposal is akin to educating a country by "issuing" degree certificates at a certain rate, completely ignoring if anyone is learning anything.

I didn't argue that it wasn't inflationary . Right at the outset I described inflation. Did you actually read the rest of my post? I asked about something completely different. You seem to be saying people who don't have enough money at a given moment should starve. The difference with your example of degree certificates is that they are not basic necessities needed for survival.

And you seem to be saying that any warm body deserves to survive, at any cost to anyone, a priori, regardless of any other information whatsoever.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#116

Post by mmirate »

yequalsx wrote: post #75
gaius wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many socialist regimes need to end in "dictatorship and corruption" before the world realises that the latter is the inevitable consequence of the former?

The word socialist has a variety of connotations in the U.S. For instance to a segment of the U.S. population having universal healthcare is equated with socialism. Capitalists in France, Great Britain, Denmark, Germany etc. tend disagree with this equating. So when someone says, “Not true socialism” we need to know if they are referring the actual definition of socialism or the popularly bastardized colloquial meani…

But how do we know that western Europe is doing well because of the welfare systems that their capitalist economies prop-up? How do we know it isn't the opposite; that western Europe would do better if its highly effective capitalist economies didn't each have to prop-up a welfare system?

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#117

Post by thesmallestcat »

yorwba wrote: post #114
thesmallestcat wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they've succeeded, if "need a safe space?" is upvoted and my reply calling that commenter out is heavily downvoted, why even try to discuss current affairs on HN? Let the trolls roll in their shit. Fighting with pigs in mud, etc. etc.

To be honest, if the only response you have to a comment is to call them a troll, you should remember your own advice: Let the trolls roll in their shit. Do not engage. Downvote, flag and move on. The mods will sort things out for you.

You're 100% right, I was upset because this is a legitimately interesting topic for discussion, and when I was commenting, the thread was being flooded with low-grade "hurr durr socialism" comments (I watched the thread rapidly grow from 0 comments), feeding the trolls is not the answer... easy to forget, which is what users like "whistlecrackers" want.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#118

Post by sebcat »

cynicalkane wrote: post #27
cdancette wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not socialism. That's a dictatorship and corruption.

Socialism, in the Marxist sense, requires a dictatorship. Specifically, the people are supposed to install a dictatorship to seize the means of production. This dictatorial body has absolute power to "rewrite society", including the abolition of traditional notions of justice, and civil, economic and human rights. How the dictatorship is supposed to be a means of representing the people's will is left unspecified. Th…

Revolutionary communism/Marxism (which Chávez identified with) likes the idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat. It is not a requirement for socialism in itself, and a lot of socialists would be directly opposed to it.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#119

Post by EGreg »

mmirate wrote: post #115
EGreg wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't argue that it wasn't inflationary . Right at the outset I described inflation. Did you actually read the rest of my post? I asked about something completely different. You seem to be saying people who don't have enough money at a given moment should starve. The difference with your example of degree certificates is that they are not basic necessities needed for survival.

And you seem to be saying that any warm body deserves to survive, at any cost to anyone, a priori , regardless of any other information whatsoever.

No, I didn't say "at any cost to anyone". I specifically outlined the system and the cost. You are again attacking straw men, this time by adding clauses.

So can you stop beating around the bush and admit you don't think humans should survive if they don't have enough wealth, even if their society has more than enough wealth for them to do so?

That's the fundamental point.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#120

Post by yequalsx »

mmirate wrote: post #116
yequalsx wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word socialist has a variety of connotations in the U.S. For instance to a segment of the U.S. population having universal healthcare is equated with socialism. Capitalists in France, Great Britain, Denmark, Germany etc. tend disagree with this equating. So when someone says, “Not true socialism” we need to know if they are referring the actual definition of socialism or the popularly bastardized colloquial meani…

But how do we know that western Europe is doing well because of the welfare systems that their capitalist economies prop-up? How do we know it isn't the opposite; that western Europe would do better if its highly effective capitalist economies didn't each have to prop-up a welfare system?

My comment was about how socialism has different connotations to different people. That capitalists in America decry universal healthcare as socialist and capitalists in Europe tend not to. Just labeling capitalism as good or bad is not helpful. Aspects are good. Aspects are bad. Same with socialism.
Post reply on HN