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In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

nytimes.com

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Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#81

Post by ptaipale »

WJW wrote: post #6
mmirate wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how socialism always seems to require the amount and kind of force provided by a dictatorship...

Like in most of Western Europe?

Western Europe is not "socialist countries". The traditional meaning of a socialist state is "means of production are controlled by the state". None of the countries in Western Europe work like this. They are market economies.

What people often don't understand is, by the way, that the supposedly "more socialist" countries in North Europe, like Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark, are in fact in many ways more market driven and have very free economies, compared to e.g. "non-socialist" Southern Europe. But of course, in all countries the politics meddles with the economy.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#82

Post by pistoriusp »

mmirate wrote: post #72
cdancette wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that the huge inequalities we have today in developed countries are a "huge success"? When the richest man in the world has 100B$, and yet 12% of Americans live under the poverty line?

Yes. The richest people have produced orders of magnitude more value than those under the poverty line. And yes I'm talking about value for their customers. You know, the people who paid for their products and thereby made them rich.

"value" at the cost of the environment isn't value. It's debt.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#83

Post by thesmallestcat »

RubenSandwich wrote: post #78
jbm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am actually a bit concerned with how this reached the top page with so many low effort comments. Regardless of whether it is the case that socialist policies are responsible for this situation, it’s weird that there are a sudden upswing in the strange, almost sneering style of comment that is littering the comment area. I almost expect a list of Wikipedia links about Zimbabwe and other countries to follow.

Agreed. If governments are invested in changing opinions on other Internet forums, why not here? These comments are very low quality and seem to me to be writen to stir up political screaming matches, not actual debate.

Well, they've succeeded, if "need a safe space?" is upvoted and my reply calling that commenter out is heavily downvoted, why even try to discuss current affairs on HN? Let the trolls roll in their shit. Fighting with pigs in mud, etc. etc.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#84

Post by matte_black »

cdancette wrote: post #58
tuna-piano wrote: post #50

This whole situation is so sad, because it is 100% human caused. This is not a natural disaster! Socialism does not work and it is not moral. Hundreds of millions of people have died and suffered under this economic and governmental system, and many more will die in Venezuela to re-learn this lesson. And yet, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, the appeal of socialism still somehow permeates to otherwise succe…

So you think that the huge inequalities we have today in developed countries are a "huge success"? When the richest man in the world has 100B$, and yet 12% of Americans live under the poverty line?

There will always be a poverty line, so that percentage can never be 0.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#85

Post by rtpg »

krona wrote: post #74
cdancette wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that the huge inequalities we have today in developed countries are a "huge success"? When the richest man in the world has 100B$, and yet 12% of Americans live under the poverty line?

The poverty rate as a percentage hasn't really changed since the mid 1960's, so I'm not sure what your point is. I'd much rather be in poverty in 2017 than in 1960.

in the 60 years since 1960 we have somehow been unable to bring everyone out of poverty despite the massive increase in productivity we've seen?

Meanwhile the gap between the richest and poorest person has grown immensely, and real wages have stagnated for 30 years.

Sure, everyone has an iPhone, but there's a universe where everyone has an iPhone and almost nobody is underwater. And we actively choose to not be in it every time we subscribe to "our billionaire benefactor" theories.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#86

Post by foldr »

mmirate wrote: post #72
cdancette wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that the huge inequalities we have today in developed countries are a "huge success"? When the richest man in the world has 100B$, and yet 12% of Americans live under the poverty line?

Yes. The richest people have produced orders of magnitude more value than those under the poverty line. And yes I'm talking about value for their customers. You know, the people who paid for their products and thereby made them rich.

Then Venezuela is a success too, by your definition. Its poor are not "producing value", and hence are poor.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#87

Post by BjoernKW »

Whenever socialism goes awry there’s this True Scotsman argument: “Well, that’s not true socialism.”

According to those standards there probably hasn’t been a true socialist society or state yet.

The often mentioned Nordic model isn’t socialism by any narrow definition because it still involves free market capitalism and private ownership of the means of production.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#88

Post by coldtea »

tuna-piano wrote: post #50

This whole situation is so sad, because it is 100% human caused. This is not a natural disaster! Socialism does not work and it is not moral. Hundreds of millions of people have died and suffered under this economic and governmental system, and many more will die in Venezuela to re-learn this lesson. And yet, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, the appeal of socialism still somehow permeates to otherwise succe…

>It is quite scary to me that people can be so delusional even with the overwhelming evidence of the success of capitalism for the poor and the absolute failure of socialism for everybody.

That's more what you like to believe than what is out there.

Most of the "overwhelming evidence of the success of capitalism for the poor" has been the success of colonialism and imperialism (western countries fucking the planet's 2/3rds and bringing the loot in, then using it to fuel their internal growth).

Colonialism and imperialist has been a historical fact, most of the "developing" and "underdeveloped" countries today were owned by western powers up until the 50s. It would be interesting to see how those "free market" success stories would have fared without mass exploitation of external peoples.

And socialist policies (which are different to totalitarian states like USSR and co) have worked just fine in Sweden, Denmark, France, and tons of other places, including unexpected ones like Singapore (where the state owns tons of businesses, the poor get public funded houses and so on). And of course for most of its own buildup and rise, US had strong tariffs and protections for its market.

Heck, the most boost in the US (in the post WWII era) was tied to increased unionism and post-New Deal social policies -- closer to socialism to regulating everything and then gifting 1 trillion to Wall Street "too big to fail" scum.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#89

Post by gaius »

cdancette wrote: post #53
whistlecrackers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing private property is the destruction of an elementary freedom.

That's your belief based on current societies norms. Don't you think that the first tribes, before the agricultural revolution were not free? And yet they didn't have private property.

And yet they didn't have private property

Ride the chieftain's favourite horse and see what he'd have to say about ownership...

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#90

Post by cdancette »

matte_black wrote: post #84
cdancette wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that the huge inequalities we have today in developed countries are a "huge success"? When the richest man in the world has 100B$, and yet 12% of Americans live under the poverty line?

There will always be a poverty line, so that percentage can never be 0.

That makes no sense. What if everyone is above the poverty line ? If everyone can live a normal life without being afraid of lacking food or shelter, then the percentage is 0 IMO.
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