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In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

nytimes.com

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Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#101

Post by Mary-Jane »

cdancette wrote: post #58
tuna-piano wrote: post #50

This whole situation is so sad, because it is 100% human caused. This is not a natural disaster! Socialism does not work and it is not moral. Hundreds of millions of people have died and suffered under this economic and governmental system, and many more will die in Venezuela to re-learn this lesson. And yet, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, the appeal of socialism still somehow permeates to otherwise succe…

So you think that the huge inequalities we have today in developed countries are a "huge success"? When the richest man in the world has 100B$, and yet 12% of Americans live under the poverty line?

Serious comment. Help me understand the problem with economic inequality. If I can afford two cars, a nice house, plenty of food for my family, and all the other things we've become comfortably accustomed to in the first world, why should it matter that my boss can afford twice as much, and that her boss can afford 30, 300, or even 30000000 times more than that?

Don't take this to mean I am ignorant if the poverty problem in the US, but that's a separate concern. Comparatively, the US has a reasonable safety net (sure, it could be better, but again, separate issue). Given the choice, I'd rather be economically unequal and live in poverty in the US than economically equal and living in poverty in places like Venezuela.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#102

Post by gaius »

EGreg wrote: post #92
gaius wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the prices would be marked up constantly but there also would be a constant increase in the money supply This is called (hyper)inflation. They already have that, no new app required.

You're describing the problem, not the solution. If all people have to run to the ATM faster than they take a piss so they can buy food then making payments digital is an immediate improvement. But that's just the first part. Did you read the part about issuing 2X the amount of currency to your own people for every X you issue to pay back foreign interests? I want substantive feedback on my UBI proposal!

That's again inflationary - because each unit of currency is worth less.

Money is not wealth, its a token of exchange for wealth. Your proposal is akin to educating a country by "issuing" degree certificates at a certain rate, completely ignoring if anyone is learning anything.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#103

Post by sctb »

whistlecrackers wrote: post #9
cdancette wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not socialism. That's a dictatorship and corruption.

If you're not being sarcastic you're a fucking moron.

Could you please re-read the guidelines and then stop posting like this?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#104

Post by mitchellberry »

thesmallestcat wrote: post #83
RubenSandwich wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. If governments are invested in changing opinions on other Internet forums, why not here? These comments are very low quality and seem to me to be writen to stir up political screaming matches, not actual debate.

Well, they've succeeded, if "need a safe space?" is upvoted and my reply calling that commenter out is heavily downvoted, why even try to discuss current affairs on HN? Let the trolls roll in their shit. Fighting with pigs in mud, etc. etc.

Why should it even be discussed anyway? Some accounts seem intent on creating a "special" reddit here.

Would love to see some technological solutions to this problem currently afflicting millions, but this is just general world news and the associated opining.

It's noise and nothing more.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#105

Post by [deleted] »

cynicalkane wrote: post #27
cdancette wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not socialism. That's a dictatorship and corruption.

Socialism, in the Marxist sense, requires a dictatorship. Specifically, the people are supposed to install a dictatorship to seize the means of production. This dictatorial body has absolute power to "rewrite society", including the abolition of traditional notions of justice, and civil, economic and human rights. How the dictatorship is supposed to be a means of representing the people's will is left unspecified. Th…

[deleted]

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#106

Post by coldtea »

krona wrote: post #74
cdancette wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that the huge inequalities we have today in developed countries are a "huge success"? When the richest man in the world has 100B$, and yet 12% of Americans live under the poverty line?

The poverty rate as a percentage hasn't really changed since the mid 1960's, so I'm not sure what your point is. I'd much rather be in poverty in 2017 than in 1960.

>I'd much rather be in poverty in 2017 than in 1960.

You'd be surprised. In 1960 it was easy to find occasional job gigs and make some money. Plus, in the fifties even a simple month's salary got a long way.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#107

Post by gaius »

cdancette wrote: post #90
matte_black wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be a poverty line, so that percentage can never be 0.

That makes no sense. What if everyone is above the poverty line ? If everyone can live a normal life without being afraid of lacking food or shelter, then the percentage is 0 IMO.

Organizations such as the Joseph Rowntree foundation define poverty as being in the lowest third of income. Then periodically issue angry press releases that one third of children are below the poverty line...

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#108

Post by nopinsight »

A key contributing factor appears to be the capability to produce. The handout system in Venezuela had destroyed a large portion of that capability and thus when its stock of wealth in the form of oil becomes less valuable, the disaster ensues.

Well-managed capitalism is much more efficient than socialism in inducing people and organizations to develop and upgrade their production capabilities. One of its unfortunate side effects is much larger inequality than socialism. Still, history has shown that over the long run, capitalism tends to be better even for the poor. Most poor people in the US still live better than many average people in certain countries (Example: a small fraction of people in India own a car; many poor people in the States do).

On the other hand, pure capitalism is clearly not the most efficient system because it perpetuates the status quo, suffers from negative externalities, and underdevelops certain resources, especially those that require a long lead time and mostly yield social rather than private benefits. Prime examples include public infrastructure and talents born in underprivileged families.

Capitalism that works well should maintain these two components that resemble socialism:

1) Long-term public investment to develop shared infrastructure, production capabilities, and talents, and

2) Redistribution to alleviate people from poverty trap and allow people to help themselves and become a contributing member to the community

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#109

Post by coldtea »

mmirate wrote: post #72
cdancette wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that the huge inequalities we have today in developed countries are a "huge success"? When the richest man in the world has 100B$, and yet 12% of Americans live under the poverty line?

Yes. The richest people have produced orders of magnitude more value than those under the poverty line. And yes I'm talking about value for their customers. You know, the people who paid for their products and thereby made them rich.

>Yes. The richest people have produced orders of magnitude more value than those under the poverty line.

The richest people have not produced anything by themselves - maybe they got some ideas and secured some funding. The millions of people working for them have produced that value, and continue to produce it.

>And yes I'm talking about value for their customers. You know, the people who paid for their products and thereby made them rich.

It's even worse for their customers. Rich people like Henry Ford understood trickle-up economics -- pay your employees more to create a more vibrant economy.

Today's rich people, are more like robber barons of yore, by affecting legislation, passing favorable deals, screwing over markets, dodging taxes, and so on, while moving their operations elsewhere whenever that made them more profits, have royally screwed over their customer base.

The people, who, you know, are also workers making a living, for their whole life, as opposed to consumers (which they are only for a short period every day).

And that's not even considering externalities such as environmental cost and hampering democracy.

Re: In a Venezuela Ravaged by Inflation, ‘a Race for Survival’

#110

Post by yorwba »

cdancette wrote: post #90
matte_black wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be a poverty line, so that percentage can never be 0.

That makes no sense. What if everyone is above the poverty line ? If everyone can live a normal life without being afraid of lacking food or shelter, then the percentage is 0 IMO.

Usually the poverty line is defined in some way relative to the income distribution. So if everyone gets richer by the same factor, the percentage below the poverty line does not change.

I think that's a mistake. The poverty line should track how many people can't afford enough food to supply the recommended amount of nutrients, how many are not reliably protected from freezing to death, how many can't see a doctor when they have an infection, and so on.

In short, the poverty line should track how many people are physically suffering because they don't have enough money.

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