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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#101

Post by Top19 »

humanrebar wrote: post #61
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back ro…

Wanted to comment that I think corporate shame is such a beautifully under-appreciated tool people should be leveraging more, and it absolutely is as much a pillar of the political process as the legislative branch.

Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. It absolutely has dangers and can go to far, but that is inherent in nearly every good political choice.

On a more scary note, a lot of security advisors have suggested we’ll be seeing a rise in terrorism against corporations and executives (very soft targets) in the next 10 years, probably coinciding with the next economic bubble.

See “Brave New War” by John Robb for more info.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#102

Post by strictnein »

Top19 wrote: post #101
humanrebar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back ro…

Wanted to comment that I think corporate shame is such a beautifully under-appreciated tool people should be leveraging more, and it absolutely is as much a pillar of the political process as the legislative branch. Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. It absolutely has dangers…

You say "shame the corporation", I say "caused a lot of retail workers to have a bad day and probably lose some much needed income".

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#103

Post by anigbrowl »

threeseed wrote: post #67
trgv wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reason people can't engage in both kinds of protest? Also, I think the chances of Apple deciding to pay its taxes due to this kind of pressure are at least as high as politicians in X country closing loopholes.

People can protest all they like. It's just not going to achieve a single thing. Macron isn't directly targeted so where is the political pressure for him to change anything in France ? It's exactly like Occupy Wall Street where people protested and camped outside the likes of JP Morgan. And what was the outcome of all of that ? Nothing.

Does your code work right first time? Probably not. Activism proceeds incrementally and makes false starts and pivots like anything else.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#104

Post by strictnein »

visarga wrote: post #98
downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

> Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes Ok, say we protest the Irish government, and they close the loophole. Next, they do the same from another country. What should we do when Apple uses another loophole?

You've strangely already answered the question you asked.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#105

Post by mc32 »

Top19 wrote: post #101
humanrebar wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back ro…

Wanted to comment that I think corporate shame is such a beautifully under-appreciated tool people should be leveraging more, and it absolutely is as much a pillar of the political process as the legislative branch. Bringing back a societal-enforced code of ethics punishable by humiliation and public shame with a defined path of atonement is what’s going to put all corporations back in line. It absolutely has dangers…

That sounds like premodern punishment --it still exists in some societies as a common way to enforce morality where the central govt is weak.

I'm sure I'm not an exception thinking this is a backwards approach to influence behavior.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#106

Post by hux_ »

emerged wrote: post #90
hux_ wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not that Apple doesn't care. The over-optimized consumption culture that props up an Apple does not care. We are way past the point of no return. Might as well be standing in front of a giant redwood and yelling at it to change direction.

Of course Apple doesn't care, and the rest that you wrote is also true.

I meant what I said. There are people who care in every mega corp you can find. But they are trapped by that same consumption culture. And unable to do jack. In a way they have become replaceable cogs of a giant machine they created.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#107

Post by geomark »

r3bl wrote: post #28
baddox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s relatively easy to argue that murder is immoral even if there was a legal loophole. It’s much more difficult to argue that employing legal methods to reduce your tax burden is immoral.

Seems as dead simple to me as to argue about murder. If you're a company that's present in a certain geographic area, you're expected to pay taxes in that area. If you don't pay taxes and you actively work on not paying taxes, you're immoral. Done.

There's another side that says that taxes themselves are immoral given that they are paid as a result of coersion.

So no, not done.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#108

Post by microtonal »

downandout wrote: post #70
Thorncorona wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella. Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should. Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also multilaterally a…

So do you voluntarily pay more taxes than you are legally obligated to? Purposely fail to take deductions etc? Hopefully you’re walking the walk since you’re saying things like this.

The problem is that you can only make use of loopholes if you are large enough. You need foreign entities, an army of lawyers, etc. Consequently, rich companies can use loopholes, but the smaller local companies that they are competing with cannot use the same loopholes.

Secondly, you would be surprised, there enough people who don't deduct everything possible. There are also enough people who don't take the cheapest energy, but choose a green option instead. Who don't buy the cheapest meat, but go for more expensive non-factory farm meat. Who don't take a plane, but take a train. Etc.

(Before someone starts to criticise green energy, bio meat, etc., that's not the point: people are willing to spend more for a more ethnical lifestyle. Why shouldn't we expect the same from a company that always talks about its ethical virtues?)

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#109

Post by petre »

westiseast wrote: post #78
PrimalDual wrote: post #36

Pardon my ignorance but I thought Apple largely obeyed the law. Shouldn’t these people be protesting the government that fails to tax Apple justly?

Ireland allowed Apple a loophole where they were incorporated there, but non-resident, and therefore no tax. It was a sweetheart deal and Ireland got jobs and investment. The EU said no, wants the back tax to be paid.

Retroactive taxes and tax regulation? It's too bad the EU officials did not think about that loophole before it was abused.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#110

Post by microtonal »

savanaly wrote: post #92
Thorncorona wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella. Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should. Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also multilaterally a…

a) what everyone else said, it's impossible to draw the line between what ordinary people do in all tax paying nations, i.e. look with a keen eye at all the possible deductions and tax incentives available to them in order to minimize how much they pay, and what huge corporations like Apple do which is essentially the same but with a multitude more laws and lawyers. b) even if you could draw the line and somehow say…

even if you could draw the line and somehow say Apple was doing something "more evil" than normal tax avoidance, what's the point in petitioning the corporation to stop doing that? A corporation is sort of a money-hungry optimization machine without a soul and the outcome you get with it depends on the environment it exists in, as a matter of mechanical logic.

Simple: brand value. Apple likes to be associated with: privacy, green, etc. If their brand gets associated with greed and tax evasion, their brand devalues (at least in Europe), possibly leading to fewer sales.

For a company that that sells with high margins, like Apple, reputation is extremely important.

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