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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#91

Post by simonsarris »

valuearb wrote: post #82
wavefunction wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it funny that these activists focus on foreign companies selling in France but not paying taxes on those sales? Seems perfectly understandable to me why foreign firms behaving like Apple would be the target.

Apple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.

That's not true. Tax authorities in France already fined Apple a 400 million adjustment last year for tax avoidance in FY 2011 and 2013. After 2013 Apple changed their practices to be more obfuscated.

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2016/11/24/le-fisc-fr...

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#92

Post by savanaly »

Thorncorona wrote: post #22
downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella. Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should. Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also multilaterally a…

a) what everyone else said, it's impossible to draw the line between what ordinary people do in all tax paying nations, i.e. look with a keen eye at all the possible deductions and tax incentives available to them in order to minimize how much they pay, and what huge corporations like Apple do which is essentially the same but with a multitude more laws and lawyers.

b) even if you could draw the line and somehow say Apple was doing something "more evil" than normal tax avoidance, what's the point in petitioning the corporation to stop doing that? A corporation is sort of a money-hungry optimization machine without a soul and the outcome you get with it depends on the environment it exists in, as a matter of mechanical logic. Would you hold a counter protest to bees because they sting people? No, that would be silly, it's just in their nature to sting people. Would you picket the Borg for trying to take over your star system? No, it's pointless to try and guilt the Borg and even more so to try to force them to change by such appeals.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#93

Post by [deleted] »

trgv wrote: post #42
innocentoldguy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this sort of activism really help? I mean, this isn't an Apple-only issue and if Apple is obeying tax laws, then are they really going to consider paying more just because a small group of people chanted in one of their stores for a while? Even if Apple is breaking the law, isn't it worth putting up with a handful of activists for a few hours if it saves them millions in taxes and makes their investors happy? I…

Is there any reason people can't engage in both kinds of protest? Also, I think the chances of Apple deciding to pay its taxes due to this kind of pressure are at least as high as politicians in X country closing loopholes.

[deleted]

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#94

Post by PhasmaFelis »

valuearb wrote: post #83
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Apple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.

What's your rebuttal to this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15836006

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#95

Post by PhasmaFelis »

threeseed wrote: post #62
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Really ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant. Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.

> Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story.

What's your rebuttal to this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15836006

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#96

Post by seanmcdirmid »

realusername wrote: post #87
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Apple was able to realize their R&D value income taxes in France rather than the USA on all French sales, they would probably pay less, not more, than what they are now. At anyrate, value is well defined across the world. If it was define the way you want, the countries would see all their exporters as freeloaders, not paying for the infrastructure that is realizing their profit. Heck, places like Switzerland and…

> If Apple was able to realize their R&D value income taxes in France rather than the USA on all French sales, they would probably pay less, not more, than what they are now. Tax breaks are on R&D, not sales and Apple does not have any R&D in France so I don't follow you... > At anyrate, value is well defined across the world. There's no common tax laws across the world so this does not seem to be true.

Yes, for France, the USA, and the western world, for countries without bizarro economic systems, value is accounted for and taxed at source, not sink.

Sales is not the only source of value to be had. It is weird that you are on this site and think development is value free.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#97

Post by visarga »

valuearb wrote: post #83
beloch wrote: post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

Apple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.

Why do you feel the need to repost the same message twice in two different places?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#98

Post by visarga »

downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

> Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes

Ok, say we protest the Irish government, and they close the loophole. Next, they do the same from another country. What should we do when Apple uses another loophole?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#99

Post by visarga »

cdancette wrote: post #17
downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

While you're right, I think it's still a good thing, as apple is obviously on the border of legality (in fact, most of those tax evasion schemes are not proven legal). I read that they estimated that each technique they used had a 1/4 chance of being judged illegal in court. Moreover, it raises awareness, and it is a good thing to blame publicly those society to help governments change the rules. If no one complains,…

You buy an iPhone in France, tax doesn't go to fund the French people, it goes into an offshore. You tell them to stop it, they find another loophole, even more protracted. That's quite upsetting.

So, Apple exploits both China and Europe to make a buck.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#100

Post by realusername »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #96
realusername wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Apple was able to realize their R&D value income taxes in France rather than the USA on all French sales, they would probably pay less, not more, than what they are now. Tax breaks are on R&D, not sales and Apple does not have any R&D in France so I don't follow you... > At anyrate, value is well defined across the world. There's no common tax laws across the world so this does not seem to be true.

Yes, for France, the USA, and the western world, for countries without bizarro economic systems, value is accounted for and taxed at source, not sink. Sales is not the only source of value to be had. It is weird that you are on this site and think development is value free.

> Sales is not the only source of value to be had. It is weird that you are on this site and think development is value free.

I find it the opposite, I find weird that you are on this site and think value magically appears out of R&D since the countless startups which are failing every month... Just look at YCombinator data from the past 5 year and I bet most of the startups back then (which had products) failed because they did not generate enough revenue to sustain themselves.

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