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Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

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Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#201

I think the top comment for this should be about Filecoin, instead of just another uninformed comments about Bitcoin that we see here every day. That said, one thing most people don't talk about is: I think most people think IPFS is disruptive, but I think IPFS itself is susceptible to disruption. The main reason why IPFS is useful is because there's not an easy way to do NAT traversal therefore it's super hard for p…

I see a lot of people here making the mistake of thinking that IPFS is a file storage system that splits up content among a decentralized, shared network when it's not. If I have a file and "store" it on IPFS - that file sits on my own machine indefinitely. You would think that a project called “Interplanetary File System” would be able to store some data... but nope. Instead, files in IPFS are only ever distributed to other hosts if they express interest in that content, and they are mirrored only if their clients have been setup to seed that content.

IPFS in that sense is more like Bittorrent in that it doesn't magically guarantee data will be available. That is the reason why you see so many “decentralized” systems using IPFS that suck. Because the moment data is “stored” in Interplanetary “File System”, the user thinks they can close the application and the data will still be there.... Guess why there are so many stores on OpenBazaar that are inaccessible at the moment ;)

The reason why so many Ethereum developers are using IPFS is because these developers typically have no clue what they're doing. They're the kind of developers whose introduction to blockchains came in the form of an artificially-imposed toy sandpit and now they think that blockchain engineering consists of being able to build towers out of blocks built by other people. They cannot build anything new for themselves, and if they understood how any of the existing components worked they probably wouldn't use them... But they don't.

After doing some tests, IPFS seems to run their own caching servers that automatically cache content retrieved from the network via their servers. So I am guessing that “dapp developers” are “optimizing” their code to use these servers, or are making requests to these servers in tests and then assuming that IPFS is a magic data store that gives them infinite decentralized, scalable storage space for no cost.... I mean, economically that is already impossible. But even if it could technically do that, ask yourself what Filecoin is suppose to be for?

On the topic of Filecoin, it's a complete disaster and the paper linked in the OP doesn't cover any of the main technical problems. What this paper fails to address is how unreliable time-lock encryption is as a timing function for anything given that its impossible to know how much serial computational power an attacker has available. That already defeats most of the claims made around Filecoin's absurdly inefficient and impossible to verify “proof-of-spacetime” algorithm.

The other thing that none of these papers addresses is how an auction market is fundamentally at odds to the needs of a cryptoeconomic system. The problem is that with no way to regulate the supply of storage space, it naturally leads to more people wanting to sell what they have then there is demand for it (which will crash the price of the storage space.)

If hosts cannot remain profitable by playing fairly then the only option left is to cheat. This is actually the opposite to how blockchains work as they strictly control the supply to maintain a healthy security-cost ratio (technically there is only ever 1 Bitcoin whose scarcity is maintained via a growing proof-of-work. The “bit” comes from the virtually fragmented sub-coins, but there is only ever 1 Bitcoin.)

Tl; dr: Interplanetary File System can only do distribution and cannot actually store files; And Filecoin isn't really a coin at all since the supply is indeterminate and it functions more like an exchange for contracts than a currency. The Protocol Lab guys sure know how to bullshit people though, I'll give them that much.

Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#202
post #169

I'm so lost, there are so many conversations here talking about IPFS compared to things like Dropbox and S3. Why? To me, IPFS aims to solve a completely different problem. IPFS does not exist because we don't have means to host and distribute files - that is a problem solved by a hundred different entities. IPFS, as advertised in many mediums (video/etc), is a platform to distribute data from a local-first P2P medium…

Filecoin is trying to solve (paying for) file hosting through IPFS. Many of the existing projects around IPFS are "host X, but on IPFS".

No, it's more generally about hosting any content-addressed data. That's much much more than files/directories, as S3/Dropbox/Sia are doing.

Files and directories are just one particular data structure you can store on IPFS. Think of it as a global unified content-addressed graph database really, and Filecoin can store any arbitrary (sub)graphs within that.

Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#204
Good discussion on the technical merits. However, let's take a look at the 'overvalued' claim and a critical error the authors make.

The analysis rests on this ratio calculated for Airbnb: "Airbnb is valued today at approximately $31 billion while holding around 3 million listings in total. The average apartment in the United States was 934 square feet in 2016. In a hypothetical scenario, Airbnb is therefore valued at $11.06 per square feet. If one compares this number to the median price per square foot in the United States, which is $123, the Airbnb ecosystem diminishes the median price by a factor of 11.12."

I get this is back of the envelope so let's ignore the international dimension. The critical error in these calculations is the apples-to-apples comparison of the square feet of an Airbnb listing to a purchased square foot.

Basically - when someone pays $123 per square foot (median price in the U.S.) they are paying for the use of that space for an entire year. Said another way, they are paying $0.34 per day per square foot. Airbnb listings are not in general year-long, which means the same square foot of space is rented out over and over again throughout the year, adding revenues along the way. The 11.12 scaling factor is therefore off and too high. This leads the authors to apply an erroneous scaling factor to the Dropbox sizing to come up with an invalid valuation assessment for Filecoin.

It looks like a good average stay for an Airbnb property is about 5 days (https://blog.atairbnb.com/economic-impact-airbnb/). Let's also assume 50% occupancy rate (https://www.mashvisor.com/blog/what-airbnb-occupancy-rate-ca...).

That means an Airbnb listing is rented out about 37 times a year (365 / 5 days * 50%). The $11.06 per square foot times 37 revenue-generating occasions is $409.22 per square foot ($1.12/day/sq ft v. $0.34/day/sq ft for a purchase). So the correct apples-to-apples comparison here is to say that Airbnb increases the median price of the asset by a factor of 3.32. Aka Filecoin would need to deliver 2,580 petabytes - not 95,185. That's only 5x Dropbox, which is a minnow compared to S3 etc.

Why would that be? Most directly, because Airbnb allows the owners of the asset (sq ft in this case) to ask for a higher per day charge since the length of stay is shorter and thus the owner of the asset has more uncertainty over utilization - it's part of why 30 nights in a hotel costs much more than a month of rent. This is a well-understood economic dynamic and one that would apply to Filecoin storage miners given how miners using Filecoin could theoretically 'rent out' the same gigabyte over and over again to different buyers throughout the year - but also cover the risk of less than 100% annual utilization rates of their fixed-cost asset.

Honestly, reading this article made me more confident in the future of Filecoin. The authors highlight multiple times the better technical features than competition, proven dev team, and unwittingly call out why economically speaking owners of gigabytes under Filecoin could expect a higher return than if you were going to buy the gigabytes yourself for your own use.

Thoughts?

Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#205
post #200

I think the top comment for this should be about Filecoin, instead of just another uninformed comments about Bitcoin that we see here every day. That said, one thing most people don't talk about is: I think most people think IPFS is disruptive, but I think IPFS itself is susceptible to disruption. The main reason why IPFS is useful is because there's not an easy way to do NAT traversal therefore it's super hard for p…

Most people don't want their own server. Consider the person whose only computer is a phone. (That's, for example, most people in Japan; most people in the West under 15; etc.) Do they want to serve documents from their phone? No, because their phone doesn't have an always-on high-upload-bandwidth internet connection! Only certain computers make good servers. It's more likely that everyone will get an automatic slice…

> Most people don't want their own server.

Yes and No.

It is true people don't want their own server because it's too much hassle to set up and maintain, with not much upside.

But we've never actually experienced this so nobody really knows whether people will want this or not. Nobody knew we needed a touch screen phone that works as a computer either. You can only tell AFTER such a thing becomes available.

> No, because their phone doesn't have an always-on high-upload-bandwidth internet connection!

This is exactly the infrastructure problem I was talking about. It has nothing to do with the hardware ability itself. In case you're still thinking your iPhone is a crappy computer, No, the iPhone in your pocket is already performant enough to function as a full fledged server. It's the network that doesn't support it.

> It's more likely that everyone will get an automatic slice of a good server somewhere

Unless this comes as completely free AND it comes built into the device, people won't likely jump onto using something like this because there are free alternatives.

If you think about it, every iPhone user owns their "own cloud" (iCloud). This was unthinkable several years ago. Same thing may happen when people can have servers running on their own devices.

My point was, if the infrastructure can evolve to match the type of things devices can already do, all mobile devices will suddenly turn into p2p devices overnight. And a lot of powerful things can happen.

Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#206
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here: we did not invest; nor are we invested in any of the competitor projects mentioned in the article.

other author here, no ICO investments. We're actually working for many years on a similar system, non-profit non-ICO based. We know this scientific area a bit (see my other comment).

>>We're actually working for many years on a similar system... Hmm, this is what you neglected to mention in the paper

Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't discount the fact you are involved in yet another ICO. Cryptocurency integration and identity within IPFS could have been done without a new coin. I know you know this, yet you choose to do it anyway. That means we should question your intentions, across all your projects. And, just for the record, a cryptocurrency fund raise is simply selling access to given private/public key pairs which contain values…

I don't get all the hatred for ICOs. Nobody is forcing anybody to invest in them, and for something like filecoin there is at least a chance of something extremely useful coming out of it. Many other ICOs seem pretty strange to me, but as long as I am not forced to invest in them, what's the problem?

Can't say so if it is a Ponzi scheme.

Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#208
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't want their own server. Consider the person whose only computer is a phone. (That's, for example, most people in Japan; most people in the West under 15; etc.) Do they want to serve documents from their phone? No, because their phone doesn't have an always-on high-upload-bandwidth internet connection! Only certain computers make good servers. It's more likely that everyone will get an automatic slice…

> Most people don't want their own server. Yes and No. It is true people don't want their own server because it's too much hassle to set up and maintain, with not much upside. But we've never actually experienced this so nobody really knows whether people will want this or not. Nobody knew we needed a touch screen phone that works as a computer either. You can only tell AFTER such a thing becomes available. > No, bec…

> In case you're still thinking your iPhone is a crappy computer, No, the iPhone in your pocket is already performant enough to function as a full fledged server. It's the network that doesn't support it.

A crappy computer, no; a crappy server, yes. The available network is part of a server. A URL that points to a machine that can't be accessed whenever the owner goes into a tunnel, is a URL nobody will link to.

(Another part of the evaluation of "a server" is the available concurrent I/O throughput. There is a reason the term "slashdotted" exists, and thinking an iPhone—or even a home PC—makes a good server for serving anything with any exponential-interest-curve potential is it. This is also the reason why nobody has built the sequel to Iridium using cube-sats.)

> Unless this comes as completely free AND it comes built into the device

Yes, that's exactly the future that cloudlet advocates like IBM are talking about:

1. the ISPs run compute clusters at the edge, including both setting up traditional co-los, and making their in-home gateway modems into compute hosts as well;

2. the device/"cloud" providers (Apple, Google, etc.) make agreements with said ISPs to pay for time on those edge-clouds;

3. the device/"cloud" providers resell (possibly at a loss, to encourage lock-in) the use of the aggregate edge-cloud to the app developers on their platforms; or, they let developers use the edge-cloud in their apps for free, and pass the costs onto only heavy users, the same way they do with document storage today;

4. the users of these devices suddenly have cloudlet-enabled apps, and most don't have to pay a cent more.

Amusingly, you can already see that the device/"cloud" providers are trying to short-circuit this whole process, skipping the ISP step, by simply selling people consumer-electronics devices that could sit in their homes, connected to ZeroTier-like overlay networks, hosting mobile cloudlets. You know, like the Google Home and Amazon Echo.

Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#209

I think the top comment for this should be about Filecoin, instead of just another uninformed comments about Bitcoin that we see here every day. That said, one thing most people don't talk about is: I think most people think IPFS is disruptive, but I think IPFS itself is susceptible to disruption. The main reason why IPFS is useful is because there's not an easy way to do NAT traversal therefore it's super hard for p…

Why do they need their own server? What's wrong with Dropbox, Google Drive, et al? Or, what's wrong with the network drives from Seagate and WD that will let you access those files remotely (aside from the fact that they do cost money)?

Re: Is Filecoin a $257 million Ponzi scheme? [pdf]

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can just store an encrypted file or archive

You can, but the whole thing is built on ease of use, and you don't get ease of use if you have to manually encrypt your selfies.

IPFS isn't a consumer app. It's an underlying protocol to power something which presumably would build in encryption.
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