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Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

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Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#81

Post by celticninja »

cryptodogemoon wrote: post #79
celticninja wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't design it to exploit later adopters, he designed it so that the output was consistent regardless of the network size.

Completely wrong. The output is actually completely inverse. More work, more users, less output. The consistency you're thinking of is likely the algorithm that adjusts blocktime to 10 minute intervals.

Apologies, consistent was not the correct word to convey my meaning. The reward schedule is consistent but the reward itself is pre-determined, known by all participants, it was set out from the beginning. There was no attempt to hide the idea until a certain proportion of the BTC was mined by the creator.

Penalising late adopters is just the reverse of rewarding early adopters and bitcoin needed early adopters to keep the network alive so it makes sense to reward them. I dont really buy that late adopters are being penalised though.

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#82

Post by celticninja »

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #26
nope96 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> btc was premined by Satoshi No, Satoshi did not "premine" bitcoin. Premine means on day zero you have created currency for yourself already. The only block we know Satoshi did mine cannot be spent. There is also zero evidence that Satoshi mined additional blocks once the network got up and running. (It took days for the second block to be found.)

Since no one can actually prove (or, rather, no one has been able to do that yet) who Satoshi is, your statement of whether there is evidence of him (her?them?) mining or not mining in the beginning is rather baseless.

He would have had to mine initially to keep the network alive. In the early days people mined on their desktop CPUs, it wasn't common to mine consistently 24/7 so Satoshi likely mined for the first 6 months at a minimum. He was not the only miner but he would have been the miner of last resort. Some analysis has been done on the blockchain from the time and work done to tie some of the early addresses to known addresses of Satoshi (payments to more public early adopters). So whilst it is correct to say no one knows who he is we do know that there is a high likelihood that he mined and that he probably mined around 1m BTC. Those coins haven't moved but they are probably watched by thousands of people.

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#83

Post by celticninja »

superbrama wrote: post #77
crypt1d wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

huh? btc was premined by Satoshi and early contributors too. while nobody can confirm which of the early wallets are his, the value of the premined btc coins is likely higher than the Ethereum premine. this is the nature of all the PoW coins. The early contributors take the most risk and the most reward (if the coin succeeds).

Risk is defined by what can be lost. If you bought a $200 video card early on and spent $200 on electricity mining than your risk was $400. Contrarily someone right now buying a single bitcoin is going to be risking a lot more than just that.

Yes, but you could just buy $400 worth of bitcoin and the risk is the same.

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#84

Post by celticninja »

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #25
celticninja wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In cryptocurrencies this coin was essentially a pre-mine which is done specifically to enrich the creators without any expense to themselves. Say what you want about bitcoin, but Satoshi Nakamoto earned his coins fairly (even though he may never access them) and created a fair and level playing field for everyone who started mining alongside him. Further the vague wording about the supply size means it is unlikely th…

"Without any expense"? What do you call the technical expertise and man-years of work put into the network?

That's effort not expense, regardless don't you think that Satoshi Nakamoto put in the same, if not more, effort and didn't pre-mine BTC.

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#85

Post by splintercell »

nadam wrote: post #70
charlesdm wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not voting you down, but can you explain to me why EOS is (or could be) better than Ethereum? Everything I've read has been more negative than positive. Do they have something up and running yet?

You have heard negative things because of enormous FUD against it on each forum. Even smart people can be affected by FUD. (The only reason I did not fall for it is that I found a pattern that if something is very heavily FUD-ed, it can be undervalued just because of it. So I researched the project deeply, on a source code level.) EOS uses DPos (delegated proof of stake). This means that token holders vote for block…

> The whole network has only 21x redundancy in it, and there is no proof of work. Ethereum currently has Nx redundancy, where N is the number of nodes, and nodes are supposed to be as small as laptops.

Interesting. I have (one of the) standards by which I judge cryptocurrencies and that is, if tomorrow USD (or any major currency of a western country) is marred by hyperinflation, which currency is capable of allowing people to continue business as usual (of their consumer spending).

So far, no cryptocurrency is capable of doing that, and the most promising in this aspect were Ethereum's raiden network and IOTA (EOS wasn't even on my radar btw).

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#86

Post by superbrama »

celticninja wrote: post #83
superbrama wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk is defined by what can be lost. If you bought a $200 video card early on and spent $200 on electricity mining than your risk was $400. Contrarily someone right now buying a single bitcoin is going to be risking a lot more than just that.

Yes, but you could just buy $400 worth of bitcoin and the risk is the same.

No, the previous poster said the earliest adopters take the most risk. In actuality, whoever pays the most for their btc takes the most risk.

Early adopters invested almost nothing compared to the amount of money moving around now (at risk on a speculative investment). Their risk was negligible and certainly far less than folks getting into the game now, coin for coin.

You’re right that if one buys 0.05 btc today for $400, it’s the same risk as someone investing $400 years ago to mine hundreds or even thousands of coins, but real investors aren’t buying 0.05 btc.

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#87

Post by desireco42 »

stupidcar wrote: post #29

It strikes me as an (non-invested) outsider that Ethereum seems to benefit from having a figure like Vitalik who can act as a Torvalds-esque figurehead, setting the project's technical direction. And that, in contrast, the non-participation of Satoshi Nakamoto has left a power vacuum at the heart of Bitcoin, which results in the kind of bloody and attritional battles required to move it forward. Because everybody and…

I respect your view, but I actually think that because ETH has proven to be difficult to secure, that it will continue to experience problems and as such, it is not a viable platform for future development.

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#88

Post by PretzelPirate »

DalasNoin wrote: post #58
VMG wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the incentive to participate honestly in Proof of Stake if there is no reward? Leaving aside the question whether PoS even works at all https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf

You get the transaction fees. when I said block reward, I was referring to the minted coins.

On top of earning fees, if PoS includes penalties for not being honest, you will lose money by not doing the right thing.

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#89

Post by superbrama »

celticninja wrote: post #80
cryptodogemoon wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is purely the internal economic model of bitcoin production concerning work/energy/value input versus output to workers. Imagine someone tells you they've created a money printing machine that prints 21m BTC, and they design the machine to give them most of the BTC and when it arrives in your town the man says "well it looks like the rules have changed now and your work isn't worth as much as my work because…

The rule change was fully known about in advance, it didn't suprise anyone. And you could contend that the work is now worth more. For a long time mining was economically unrewarding, miners created a blockchain and provided it with power at their own cost and without any guarantee of success or return. Those who joined later were joining when their work would be immediately rewarded with profit because it became eco…

If later comers took more capital risk, in what way did they take less risk, exactly?

The semantics matter here. Perhaps the later comers were more opportunistic and optimistic about the likelihood of achieving a favorable return. But they had to take more risk, since they were later to the party and risked more capital (as you noted).

Re: Vitalik Unveils Ethereum 2.0 Roadmap

#90

Post by alexmat »

nwah1 wrote: post #73
alexmat wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you don't know why something is going on, doesn't mean it's arbitrary. In this case it's because of a path to mass adoption: http://coinivore.com/2017/11/26/bitcoin-reaches-time-high-95...

Mass speculation

That's like, your opinion, man.
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