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A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

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Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#31

Post by bmcusick »

Ignoring whether the study's assumptions are accurate, one problem with this sort of rhetoric is that "the US economy" isn't a political constituency. There's just people, and their claims on the economy in terms of personal wealth and income.

It's sort of like when you say "NAFTA grows the US economy but $1 trillion" and the guy who's job was outsourced to Mexico ask "Okay, but how does that help me make rent or buy groceries for my family?"?

Basic Income (and other welfare schemes) are like that too, except for the rich. They're absolutely worse off if the economy grows 10% but their personal wealth and income declines by 20%.

Personally I'm a fan of UBI, but I sell it as (1) welfare is the right thing to do, and (2) UBI is the most efficient way to do it.

I'd probably start with something less than $1,000/month though. I'd offer a package deal to employers and the rich that looks like this: the government will pay healthcare costs and provide $500/month to each adult and $250/month for each child, and in return we abolish the minimum wage.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#32

Post by cmiles74 »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #20

It's more than the expense of paying the money and whether people will continue to work. What needs to also be closely studied is: - Effect on crime - Effect on drug addiction - Effect on family outcomes - Effect on education opportunities I'd gladly pay more taxes if I could draw a direct link between UBI and a safer, happier society.

There was recently an article about a study on the prevalence of hookworm in is US south[0]. It seems to me that basic income could go a long way towards resolving this issue. One of the examples cited in the article involved a trailer park where they pumped sewage into open pools. If every member of the park was getting some form of basic income, the state could require the trailer park to install a septic system and the trailer park, in turn, could charge it's renters more and put in the system.

Currently it sounds like a blood from a stone situation: no one has any money, so requiring the park to install a sanitation system would simply cause it to file bankruptcy, likely with no change of any kind.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15179440

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#33

Post by llamataboot »

genzoman wrote: post #23
abfan1127 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the difference is the Alaska pulled natural resources out of the ground. Basic Income is just wealth transfer.

Hipster way to say "stealing" ;)

Absolutely not. There's no such thing as individually made profits that don't rely on a ton of collective factors. It s not stealing if it wasn't yours in the first place. It's ours.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#34

Post by arcticbull »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #22
kazinator wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you'll end up just injecting those trillions back into the economy. Right; that is, whichever economy those rich folks choose to call home. :)

There's been studies that found the rich don't leave a place due to taxes. I.E. California has one of the biggest economies in the world... http://minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2011/02/documents/...

Makes sense, if you’re already wealthy then you pick where to live based on where you want to live. Optimizing based on taxes seems cheap, I’d imagine they’d rather solve that by making more money.

Plus it’s not like US citizens have much choice, they have to pay the IRS no matter where you live in the world forever. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide haha.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#36

Post by brookside »

I'm currently on an Amtrak train between Philadelphia and NYC.

Especially in leafless winter, the sheer uglyness of this swath of in-disrepair America is almost shocking.

Abandoned factories and houses. Lifeless downtowns. Trash along the tracks. Non-sweet graffiti.

Paying people to do nothing when there is so much to be done seems crazy to me. It's not like we have figured out how to solve these problems with AI or robots yet.

I could listen to an argument for paying people to participate in FDR-style public works programs. Building a bicycle lane network. Planting flowerbeds. Demolition and recycling and then re-urbanization or re-forestation of those crumbling factory grounds. And so many more things that would make this a better place to exist.

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#38

Post by cmiles74 »

abfan1127 wrote: post #11
bluetwo wrote: post #3

The only place I can think of that has done something similar is the oil and land rights of the native people of Alaska, who get checks somewhere in that range. How has this turned out for them?

the difference is the Alaska pulled natural resources out of the ground. Basic Income is just wealth transfer.

If we can't expect people to be employed such that they can support themselves, then we'll need to look into alternatives like this.

When you say "wealth transfer", from whom to whom? In this case you could argue the transfer is from the federal government to individual constituents, I don't think you can follow the dollars further then that. IMHO, it'd be refreshing to see a "wealth transfer" the benefited that bulk of the population, rather than an elite few (i.e. banking bailout during the housing crisis).

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#39

Post by armenarmen »

llamataboot wrote: post #33
genzoman wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hipster way to say "stealing" ;)

Absolutely not. There's no such thing as individually made profits that don't rely on a ton of collective factors. It s not stealing if it wasn't yours in the first place. It's ours.

Gun pointed at face, "no sir, this is not a robbery! Clearly you must realize that it was not you who made that iPhone! What a laughable concept! Truly sir you must realize that it was never yours to begin with, and as such it belongs to me and these cheery fellows with whom I am redistributing your wealth. Robbery, pish posh!"

Re: A basic income could boost the US economy by $2.5 trillion

#40

Post by digitaltrees »

joshuaheard wrote: post #37

"$1,000 paid monthly ... by increasing the federal debt would grow the economy." Borrowing money from my credit card does not increase my annual salary.

Government finances are different than personal finances. You can’t print money. You can’t tax all economic activity. You can invest a small portion of the next few generations earning potential to build productive assets now.
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