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The beginning of the end for copper wire

potsandpansbyccg.com

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Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#151
post #18

Pardon the possibly ignorant question, but what do the telecom companies have to gain by destroying their own infrastructure? I feel like I'm missing something about the US telecom market here. Aren't these companies making a profit on this infrastructure? Are they selling more profitable services and they want users to switch over? Are the maintenance fees that high?

Maintenance fees are likely to be high, especially considering that the companies are required to keep their copper lines maintained until no customers want copper service anymore. In rural areas, this could mean keeping miles and miles of line maintained for a single customer. Selling the copper from the wires also could be quite lucrative.

There's a creek on my farm that has several of those thick 25-pair cables running for hundreds of feet, mostly buried below gravel but visible occasionally. None of it is hooked up, since some genius decided that it was bad to run expensive cable through constantly changing environments like creeks. If the copper were that valuable, wouldn't the phone company have pulled these up by now?

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will so not surprise me if in 10 years the TelCos are clamoring for billions in "rural connectivity funding" from the feds to put in fiber runs to rural areas currently adequately covered by the copper they are pulling out.

Well let’s be clear, the copper in rural areas is not adequate for anything except 1930s voice connectivity.

We're pretty happy with our DSL: 25/4 or thereabouts.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#153
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then that will be a good market for a startup, or other players. Are the telcos obliged to provide you with telecommunication?

In other parts of the world, yes. Telstra in Australia is bound by the Universal Service Obligation, for instance: https://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Telco/Carriers-and-service-... This is an area where it's critically important to regulate the market to make it actually work for the people, not just profit margins. If the service providers were not obliged to provide service to people in remote areas at the same price…

I don't have an established opinion here, just a question.

What's the rationale for forcing people who live in densely populated areas to subsidize those who live in remote areas this way?

Why don't we subsidize them for, say, gasoline as well, for their longer travel distances?

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#154
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Verizon never got subsidies from New York. Verizon pays the city for the right to wire it up (5% of gross revenues).

How much is ability to use the power of government to force property owners to let you build on their land worth? It's possible that it's worth more than a 5% cut--in which case it's still a subsidy.

Now we’re getting into the weeds. Generally, telecom infrastructure is run along poles or conduits, usually owned by the power company, sometimes the telephone company (or jointly).

In New York City, a Verizon subsidiary called ECS operates a conduit network under an 1891 franchise. It pays the city a fee based on the assessed value of real estate, about $20 million per year. Verizon pays ECS standardized rates to use the conduit, but the city alleges that ECS sets rates too low, and the shortfall is about $260 million over six years. https://comptroller.nyc.gov/wp-content/uploads/documents/FP0.... Of that, 80% is allocable to Verizon, or about $42 million per year owed to the city.

The franchise fee is 5% of gross. Assuming about one million FIOS households in NYC in the steady state (consistent with Verizon’s uptake rate of about 40% and 2-3 million households passed), plus the average revenue per subscriber of $110 per month, that’s $65 million per year paid to the city.

On top of that, you’ve got to consider the value of build-out requirements. The city forces Verizon to build in neighborhoods that aren’t otherwise sufficiently profitable to justify building in. That’s a concsssion extracted by the city that also must be accounted for, because each house passed that doesn’t subscribe costs Verizon hundreds of dollars. (Going back further in history, this was the quid pro quo between AT&T and governments. My FIOS is run on a pole jointly owned by Verizon and BGE. Is this a subsidy to Verizon? On one hand, the easement is valuable. On the other hand, the pole was inherited from AT&T, who got the easement in return for running a phone line it otherwise would not have, into what used to be farmland.)

New York is also a bit of an odd situation because of ECS. In most places, the power company owns the conduit of the poles, and unlike ECS has no incentive to undercharge for attachments.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#155

Despite copper's technical limitations, this smacks of the inmates once again running the asylum. Once again, I am putting my decision to vacate the US back on the table.

Come to Australia, we abandoned a national fibre network and are now sticking with copper and HFC where possible... facepalm

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#156
post #77

It seems like a lot of commenters don't understand the problem. The issue is not about whether that copper wire can be useful. It's not about whether there exist alternatives to provide in places where the copper is too expensive to maintain. The point is that regulations previously required the telco provide an alternative service that works just as well as the existing copper before they are allowed to stop maintai…

Reading the article I dreamed of a community system were every flat / house was a wireless peer in a mesh grid.

I read somewhere a while ago that someone was thinking of doing this with airplanes. Not sure if this made it past the drawing board though.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#157
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe we could have afforded a national deployment of fiber. Verizon and other telcos already learned they can get billions in subsidies for building fiber networks, and never follow through with it with no consequences. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131012/02124724852/decad... At this point I think municipal run ISP utilities are the future we should be shooting for.

Verizon never got subsidies from New York. Verizon pays the city for the right to wire it up (5% of gross revenues).

So false! Read anything by Kushnick...

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-kushnick/the-book-of-br...

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other parts of the world, yes. Telstra in Australia is bound by the Universal Service Obligation, for instance: https://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Telco/Carriers-and-service-... This is an area where it's critically important to regulate the market to make it actually work for the people, not just profit margins. If the service providers were not obliged to provide service to people in remote areas at the same price…

I don't have an established opinion here, just a question. What's the rationale for forcing people who live in densely populated areas to subsidize those who live in remote areas this way? Why don't we subsidize them for, say, gasoline as well, for their longer travel distances?

The overriding social policy objective isn't to effect urban-to-rural subsidies per se, but to provide certain types of basic infrastructure universally — and it just so happens that the unit economics point toward a wealth from urban to rural areas as a means of accomplishing that.

To the best of my understanding, the consensus around this formed out of the Depression and was bolstered subsequently by post-war thinking. The idea was that we as a society should be able to make certain social guarantees of living standard and access to services.

Lots of things gave rise to that strain of thinking across the Western world, some of which were in response to specifically American conditions, others not. To the extent that it was influenced by the same kinds of currents that gave rise to the Western European welfare states, there was a pattern of concern over the ways in which savage inequalities between country and society perpetuated intergenerational poverty, which was in turn exploitable by demagogues and populists. There was a time in American history when the society was moving in the same general political direction as Europe as far as universal social benefits, and while the trend was unquestionably weaker here, it give rise to Medicare and Medicaid and other LBJ War on Poverty-era initiatives. Another, less acknowledged motivation was to defeat the allure of the Soviet model; revolutionary Bolshevism was big on redressing the historical gap between the sophistication and modernity of the city vs. the backward depression of the country, and universal literacy, universal electrification, universal medical infrastructure, etc. were widely touted goals. And of course, this factor was even more pronounced among the European social democracies.

The more locally American consideration was most likely that telephone service should be folded, together with farm price supports, into the overall package of stabilising subsidies to the critical agricultural sector. This was thought necessary to cushion them against a repeat of the acute economic devastation of the Depression, the Dust Bowl, etc. Telephone access was essential to economic development and automation in the twentieth century in the same way that Internet access is regarded to be now, and was practically important for farmers as a means of getting their products to market.

Last but not least, participation in the social bargain of universal service was generally a condition of being granted some sort of natural monopoly status, as for example with electrical utilities. The same general thinking was extended to the telephone, since AT&T did, after all, monopolise the local loop in most of the country for much of the twentieth century.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#159
post #77

It seems like a lot of commenters don't understand the problem. The issue is not about whether that copper wire can be useful. It's not about whether there exist alternatives to provide in places where the copper is too expensive to maintain. The point is that regulations previously required the telco provide an alternative service that works just as well as the existing copper before they are allowed to stop maintai…

Kind of ironic and funny given the rural vote is what gave Trump the presidency and flipped the FCC.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the article I dreamed of a community system were every flat / house was a wireless peer in a mesh grid.

Here's a completely random section of Texas that I found on Google Maps. Have fun making a mesh network out of the houses there. You might have more fun playing "I Spy", with the aim to find the houses. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Texas/@32.4826637,-98.4527...

As someone who lives in Texas... Thank you.
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