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The beginning of the end for copper wire

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Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#91

Post by cperciva »

andymcsherry wrote: post #64
cperciva wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that Tanenbaum was being completely serious. The point is to put the value of that copper (and the cost of replacing it in the event that it is damaged) into perspective.

He certainly wasn't. If you read his political blog ( http://electoral-vote.com/ ), you'll find this sort of sarcasm is his hallmark.

Right, my extreme understatement was my British sense of humour coming through. I was forgetting that HN has people whose only exposure to Tanenbaum is via the Linus-Tanenbaum debate (or possibly not even that) and for whom his sarcasm and my characterization of it would be less obvious.

My favourite Tanenbaumism, while I'm on the topic: Aircraft carriers are modular. If a toilet gets clogged, it doesn't start launching nuclear missiles.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#92

Post by RyJones »

gerbilly wrote: post #75

Man we're getting to be so cheap. In Canada we stopped minting pennies because copper was too expensive. Also those pex pipes they install in houses are probably popular because copper is expensive. What's next, the return of aluminum wiring? We had a week long blackout here a few years ago, my wall phone running off copper twisted pair was the only electrical thing working in the house. I was glad, because I had bet…

you're right: one advantage to PEX is price of PEX itself. Other advantages: easier to install, no sweated joints, easy to color code, of no value to meth addicts. No sweating lowers the fire risk (which tbh is very low, but non zero).

I suspect even if PEX cost 5x copper tubing, the TCO for PEX would still be lower over the lifetime of the plumbing. Shipping and moving around a spool of PEX is much easier than monkeying with a load of copper tubing.

I wish the US would join Canada in dropping the penny.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#93

Post by ajtaylor »

walshemj wrote: post #59
mrmondo wrote: post #28

While the Australian right wing govt scrapped all the fibre to the home work that was underway and decided that copper from the node to the house was a great upgrade. The internet in Australia is so bad I had significantly better in New Zealand a decade ago.

FTC Fibre to CAB and using existing coper for the drop to the house makes sense as you can get good performance with VDSL over 20MBS at a 2K yards

20Mb speeds are on the low end, and has no future upgrade path (speedwise). My cable modem allows up to 200-300 Mb service, and DOCSIS is improving with every new version.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#94

Post by JosephHatfield »

Shortly after I moved into my current place, I wanted to switch to the most basic copper-based landline service available, and I had to work through a series of six service reps and managers before someone would even acknowledge that such a plan was available. Since then, I get monthly mailings and quarterly phone calls from them strongly encouraging me to sign up for some fiber-based service. So far, I've resisted, but I fear this ruling may signal the beginning of the end of my inexpensive, reliable, phone line.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#95

Post by thenewwazoo »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #90
twunde wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can remove the red state. It applies to blue states as well for telecom and energy

This. Nobody has a monopoly on corruption and back room dealing.

Of course not, but one of the two major parties has absolutely made such things one of their policy planks. Don't make a false equivalency.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#96

Post by cavisne »

maxerickson wrote: post #78
cavisne wrote: post #52

Does ATT have an alternate asset? As far as I know they dont run a cable network or a significant fttp network so I dont see why they would remove any broadband customers. Dial up and landline only customers I can see being moved to LTE. I dont see anything about the USF going away so I dont see why anyone would be left behind, USF's are normally highly profitable for the telco. For the edge cases that cant receive a…

They segment their reporting, page 18 of this document shows their consumer segment: https://investors.att.com/~/media/Files/A/ATT-IR/financial-r... They had as many people on Uverse video (which I guess is fiber) in 2014 as they had on copper phone lines in 2016.

Uverse seems to be mostly fiber to the node, ie it’s still copper into the home

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#97

Post by [deleted] »

andymcsherry wrote: post #64
cperciva wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that Tanenbaum was being completely serious. The point is to put the value of that copper (and the cost of replacing it in the event that it is damaged) into perspective.

He certainly wasn't. If you read his political blog ( http://electoral-vote.com/ ), you'll find this sort of sarcasm is his hallmark.

[deleted]

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#98

Post by killjoywashere »

agjacobson wrote: post #30

“I don’t envision AT&T and Verizon tearing down huge amounts of copper in towns immediately.“ That’s not the point. When failures occur, they stop fixing the wires and send you a letter telling YOU what your new mode of service is, or nothing. There is no tearing down. The unsupported wire is left to rot or be salvaged at their convenience.

The term we used was "abandoned in place".

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#99

Post by secabeen »

maltalex wrote: post #11

Pardon the possibly ignorant question, but what do the telecom companies have to gain by destroying their own infrastructure? I feel like I'm missing something about the US telecom market here. Aren't these companies making a profit on this infrastructure? Are they selling more profitable services and they want users to switch over? Are the maintenance fees that high?

It will so not surprise me if in 10 years the TelCos are clamoring for billions in "rural connectivity funding" from the feds to put in fiber runs to rural areas currently adequately covered by the copper they are pulling out.

Re: The beginning of the end for copper wire

#100

Post by rz2k »

olympus wrote: post #32
cperciva wrote: post #25

Highly relevant quote: At one time, 80% of AT&T's capital value was the copper in the local loops. AT&T was then, in effect, the world's largest copper mine. Fortunately, this fact was not widely known in the investment community. Had it been known, some corporate raider might have bought AT&T, terminated all telephone service in the United States, ripped out all the wire, and sole the wire to a copper refiner to get…

It is likely that someone did realize this, did the math on the labor costs to pull all the wire up across the country, and realized it wouldn't actually be profitable. There are guys that track individual ships across the ocean to decide what/when to trade, I doubt everyone missed the value of ATT's physical assets.

Furthermore the statement mischaracterizes the ownership rights AT&T actually held over that copper once it was in place. For example, according to federal law, AT&T had to extend service almost everywhere at nearly fixed rates, even if revenue from the installation would never pay for itself.
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