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Nationalize the internet

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21–30 of 71 posts

Re: Nationalize the internet

#21
> Conventional wisdom has been that private industry is better equipped to handle things than the government. Deregulation has been the agenda of baby boomer conservatives. And it has failed. It has failed the environment. It has failed the airline industry. It has failed education. It will fail the internet.

The biggest trend in administrative law over the last few decades has been reductions in the degree to which the government micro-manages the economy. In both the U.S. (with bi-partisan support) and the EU, industries have been privatized, invasive regulatory regimes have been replaced with light-touch ones, etc. Germany energy law post-1998, for example, is pretty recognizable to someone familiar with American energy law. There was a time when the government either owned major industries, or micro-managed things like the routes airlines or trucking companies ran and the prices they charged. Pretty much the whole developed world has agreed to get rid of most of that.

By and large, these reforms have been overwhelmingly successful. In the U.S. and EU, you can go almost anywhere and get a 4G mobile wireless connection, using networks built almost entirely with private money. UPS and FedEx--and services like Amazon built on them--are the direct outgrowth of the deregulation of air freight. Consumer airline ticket prices are a fraction of what they were a few decades ago (even though airline technology has evolved very little in that time!).

If you look at hiccups like wireless data caps or airline seats getting smaller as signs that deregulation has "failed," frankly you're off the reservation. Just look at areas of the economy that haven't been subject to deregulation. Some of the worst environmental effects are caused by public water utilities, which have for decades failed to make investments to improve their infrastructure. In most places, public water utilities freely dump untreated sewage into rivers when obsolete combined sewer/rainwater systems overflow, they poison kids by pumping water through ancient lead pipes, etc.

Re-regulation and nationalization is on peoples' tongues here in the U.S., but I'd suggest looking over the pond to see what they're doing. How did Sweden wire up its country with fiber? It wasn't through massive government investment, or by forcing private companies into the charity business through universal service obligations. Stockholm empowered to municipal operator to lay dark fiber, with no government subsidies and no mandate to cover any particular portion of the population: https://www.stokab.se/Documents/Stockholms%20Stokab%20-%20A%.... The network was built out not based on "public interest" considerations or trying to fight urban poverty, but simply by building in a demand-driven basis to high-value customers first.

And unlike the U.S., Sweden didn't wire up rural areas by forcing private operators to subsidize rural customers. Instead, it simply gave rural residents a 50% tax break on the cost of hooking up their own fiber: http://www.ftthcouncil.eu/documents/Opinions/2013/Rural_FTTH....

Re: Nationalize the internet

#22

I genuinely struggle to understand proposals like this. The current political system is broken - the FCC is symptomatic of that. In what world does it seem like a good idea to give more power to that broken system?

Then it's equally broken for everyone. Nationalized or quasi-nationalized (heavily regulated) telecom companies used to be dysfunctional and sometimes comically inept but at least they weren't actively hostile against consumers and businesses.

Do you remember the monopoly ATT "ma bell" when a long distance call to friends or family was so expensive that it was reserved for emergencies or very special occasions?

Maybe they weren't actively hostile in their pricing but compared to today when you can talk to anyone in the world for no cost, it's not something I'd want to return to.

Re: Nationalize the internet

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either the corporations are going to do it, or the government is going to do it. Pick one.

The former please - it's been my experience that switching from Verizon to AT&T is somewhat easier than a bloody revolution.

What if they merge? Then what?

Re: Nationalize the internet

#24
post #18
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments inflate agency costs ad infinitum without increasing the QoS. This is not a law but based on statistics around the major countries.

Is that why America's private healthcare system costs more than any other country and yet we do not have any where near the top outcomes? What statistics are you cherry picking to make your argument?

Other countries don’t have an entire political party who sees it as their mandate to sabotage all government social services.

Re: Nationalize the internet

#25

I genuinely struggle to understand proposals like this. The current political system is broken - the FCC is symptomatic of that. In what world does it seem like a good idea to give more power to that broken system?

If we have to choose between direct government control or government-endorsed cartel control that will just ease towards full monopoly sooner or later, I would rather just skip to nationalization so we can start talking about how we reprivatize it in a new, competitive fashion.

Telecom is like health care. What we have now combines all the worst things about a private system with all the worst things about a state run system.

Re: Nationalize the internet

#26
post #18
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments inflate agency costs ad infinitum without increasing the QoS. This is not a law but based on statistics around the major countries.

Is that why America's private healthcare system costs more than any other country and yet we do not have any where near the top outcomes? What statistics are you cherry picking to make your argument?

Government interference is precisely the cause of our high medical costs (for instance, what do you think would happen to the price of Doritos if the government required everyone to purchase one bag of Doritos every week?).

Second to that is the government interference in farming (specifically, corn subsidies, which have led to an increase of corn products our food, resulting in higher inflammation levels in humans and the animals we eat, obesity, heart disease, diabetes, etc.).

IOW, more government == more worse

Re: Nationalize the internet

#27
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments inflate agency costs ad infinitum without increasing the QoS. This is not a law but based on statistics around the major countries.

Not always. Many European countries have nationalized healthcare, yet manage to have better healthcare outcomes than the US even though they spend much less per capita. The question isn't why _government_ leads to inflated cost, the question is why _American government_ leads to inflated cost.

Better healthcare outcomes? I think you mean access: For example, the NHS looks very good until you realise that the rankings include access; Based on case-by-case outcome alone, it ranks relatively poorly - certainly less than most people would guess.

The US government spends about the same on healthcare as others do, the difference is in the amount of private healthcare spending.

Re: Nationalize the internet

#28
When people want something nationalized, it usually comes with the asterisk *as long as the gov officials managing it are part of my tribe and preferred policy set. This isn't always bad, since sometimes we all are in general agreement, but it's important to ask yourself: in political systems power can shift fast, do you want these policies to be part of this shift? Do you want the internet to be managed by trump appointees?

Re: Nationalize the internet

#29

I genuinely struggle to understand proposals like this. The current political system is broken - the FCC is symptomatic of that. In what world does it seem like a good idea to give more power to that broken system?

> The current political system is broken - the FCC is symptomatic of that.

If you look beyond the crisis de jour, the FCC over the last 20 years has largely followed the same path as the other telecom regulators in the developed world. Denmark, for example, deregulated telecom until recently getting rid of its version of the FCC: https://www.mercatus.org/system/files/mercatus-layton-altern... (warning: PDF).

The biggest impediment in the U.S. has been state and local governments, which have frustrated Congress's efforts. While Congress, for example, made it illegal to grant local telecom monopolies in 1994/1996, state and local governments responded by imposing such onerous terms on potential new entrants that nobody but incumbents wanted to invest. In Baltimore, for example, Comcast has a de facto monopoly. The press, which is largely ignorant of the nuances of telecom regulation, paints it as Baltimore giving Comcast a monopoly contract: https://baltimorebrew.com/2016/10/18/city-set-to-approve-10-....

In reality, there is no exclusivity in Comcast's franchise. Rather, the franchise requirements are so onerous that no other company has even applied to build a network in Baltimore. That's despite Baltimore actively trying to solicit Google and other companies to come in and compete with Comcast: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/08/snubb....

What few people in this debate appreciate is that telecom is monumentally capital intensive, and that money has to come from somewhere. Moreover, that money is always the subject of competition from other needs. If we depend on private industry, investing in telecom has to be sufficiently attractive in comparison to other investments. If we depend on the government, money spent on maintenance and upgrading telecom infrastructure is money we don't spend on schools, public transit, etc. There is no "free lunch" where you get private companies to spend tens of billions of dollars a year while simultaneously adhering to a raft of government-set public interest objectives.

Re: Nationalize the internet

#30

I genuinely struggle to understand proposals like this. The current political system is broken - the FCC is symptomatic of that. In what world does it seem like a good idea to give more power to that broken system?

People seem to make proposals to increase government power and control while thinking optimistically of how the best possible government could use that power, rather than thinking about how a much worse government could abuse that power.

Even when the current government is one you like, you should always think carefully about agreeing to give them more power, and consider what happens when (not if) that government becomes one that is hostile towards you. If an idea to centralize more power and control suddenly sounds terrible under those circumstances, then it was terrible to begin with. If an idea still sounds good even under those circumstances, and has enough safeguards in place to make it incredibly hard to abuse, then it might be a good idea.

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