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Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#91

Post by [deleted] »

tptacek wrote: post #66
rbanffy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you call those prosecuting the US/NATO side of the conflict in Afghanistan "murderers", you run the risk of implicitly taking the side of US/NATO's adversaries, who in this case are the Taliban. Nice strawman. Calling the folks who recklessly fire on civilians murderers may be a bit exaggerated. Human error happens and human error when the human is on the trigger of a 30 mm cannon is usually disastrous, but au…

People who recklessly fire on civilians are murderers and should be tried as such. Commanders who issue orders that make ignore forseeable events like that should be held criminally responsible. Corruption should be eliminated. Corrupt local replacements for the Taliban should be thwarted. Incompetancy is bad and should be rectified. Now, all those things being true, help me understand how it can be OK to arm the Tal…

[deleted]

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#92

Post by kiba »

die_sekte wrote: post #51
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey I'm a systems guy -- technology systems and people systems. If you have a good idea for how a system of people would work to govern themselves, I'm game. Is there an example -- in the entire history of the planet -- of a government which had no need for secrecy? Sounds cool if it would work.

FYI, Iceland was some kind of anarchy between 930 and 1262. Which apparently lead to a lot of feuds. I think it's important to what kind of information governments need to keep secret and what kind they keep secret. Judging by Wikileaks content this seems to be information about (a) wars of aggression (defensive wars apparently need less secrets) (b) providing unfair advantages to private companies (I think ACTA coun…

FYI, Iceland was some kind of anarchy between 930 and 1262. Which apparently lead to a lot of feuds.

With the introduction of a tax and Christianity, it has apparently lead to a captive market. This captive market unraveled the icelandic system since there is less accountability and inability to switch.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#93

Post by rick888 »

rick888 wrote: post #58
mcantelon wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes he is. The information he released in the latest round of "secrets" gave away informants to people that can (and will) kill them. Specific examples would be great. >If he gave information about locations of jews to the Nazis, would we say it was freedom of information? The jews weren't attempting to occupy Germany at the time so probably not the most fitting comparison. >That's because Obama knows the importance…

"The jews weren't attempting to occupy Germany at the time so probably not the most fitting comparison." That's not the point. The point is that if information was given to the Germans, it would have resulted in many deaths. Occupation has absolutely nothing to do with it. "Absolutely. The truth can be politically damaging." Can I have your social security number, address, phone number, mother's maiden name, and when…

"Occupation doesn't generally happen without bloodshed. Involving oneself in occupation is an investment in bloodshed. The jews who died during the Nazi regime didn't make a choice to involve themselves in bloodshed."

And the people in the documents didn't ask wikileaks to release the names to the world and potentially to their enemies. Bloodshed could be avoided, but wikileaks is willfully looking the other way.

"If I were involved in attempting to use force to extort land or resources, I would assume the risk that my identity would be exposed. This is one reason I don't involve myself in these things."

That's like saying, because you gamble at a casino, it's an accepted risk that you will lose all your money (after we just found out that the casino has been cheating at all of the games).

"That makes two of us, it seems."

There are actual names in the documents released. I'm not going to make your point for you. If you want to continue to look foolish, it's fine by me.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#94

Post by [deleted] »

rick888 wrote: post #29
mcantelon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1) Wikileaks is really pissing people off This is because what they're doing is effective. Ineffective things don't piss people off and trigger military disinfo campaigns. The author of the WPO blog article is an AEI member, a player in the neocon agenda: not some random pundit. >2) Assange has more power than many 3-star generals I'm fine with that. Assange isn't killing people. 3-star generals are. >3) Anarchy is…

"I'm fine with that. Assange isn't killing people. 3-star generals are." Yes he is. The information he released in the latest round of "secrets" gave away informants to people that can (and will) kill them. If he gave information about locations of jews to the Nazis, would we say it was freedom of information? "Government can function with much less secrecy than it currently does. WL is serving a public need in chall…

[deleted]

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#95

Post by tptacek »

earl wrote: post #89
tptacek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you call those prosecuting the US/NATO side of the conflict in Afghanistan "murderers", you run the risk of implicitly taking the side of US/NATO's adversaries, who in this case are the Taliban. Here's what I'm wondering: when did it become fashionable to stick up for the Taliban? The Taliban aren't the Sandinistas. The Taliban aren't the North Vietnamese Army. They aren't even Hezbollah. It is conceivable --- e…

Please. Calling soldiers shooting children murderers doesn't mean I like the Taliban, it means I don't want our soldiers murdering children. Really, this isn't complicated. The Taliban might have been evil, but it doesn't mean that the replacements will be any better. As near as anybody who isn't a jackass can tell, the US has inserted ourselves into a pair of century (millenia?) long sectarian conflicts. Government…

You're right. Calling people who shoot children murderers doesn't make you a supporter of the Taliban.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#96

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #91
tptacek wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who recklessly fire on civilians are murderers and should be tried as such. Commanders who issue orders that make ignore forseeable events like that should be held criminally responsible. Corruption should be eliminated. Corrupt local replacements for the Taliban should be thwarted. Incompetancy is bad and should be rectified. Now, all those things being true, help me understand how it can be OK to arm the Tal…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#97

Post by fuzz579 »

gloob wrote: post #67

I find it bizarre that so many people suddenly care so much about the lives of a couple hundred civilians in Afghanistan. Between the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, tens or hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed, and nary a tear was shed by a reporter anywhere, but suddenly God knows how many people are out for this fellow's blood. The world's a funny place.

I think that the old adage "One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic" is quite applicable here.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#98

Post by caf »

baddox wrote: post #37

I laughed when the author cited a US law claiming the United States' ability (specifically the FBI) to legally violate international law . That's like me citing my own personal law that says I may legally violate state laws and burglarize any house I want to.

More specifically, it'd be like the Russians citing a Russian law that allowed them to go in to the US and arrest Marc A. Thiessen.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#99

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #87
mcantelon wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of "murderer" could be argued, but I fail to see what's in any way controversial about calling a member of the AEI a neocon. According to Wikipedia "AEI is the most prominent think tank associated with American neoconservatism". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Enterprise_Institute

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#100

Post by die_sekte »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #9
kiba wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3) Anarchy is not the same as openness. Openness says I demand full insight into what my government is doing. If not me personally, then somebody I elected or appointed. Anarchy says any type of secret is bad and open air always beats secrets. Governments can't function without secrets -- even your local small town has to have secret meetings to discuss personnel issues and such. Wikileaks is, to my mind, opposed to…

Hey I'm a systems guy -- technology systems and people systems. If you have a good idea for how a system of people would work to govern themselves, I'm game. Is there an example -- in the entire history of the planet -- of a government which had no need for secrecy? Sounds cool if it would work.

Another example of an anarchistic region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City

Kowloon Walled City was essentially lawless, not set up as an anarchy, but becoming one by chance. Controlled anarchy seems like a strange idea, but maybe that's what we need. Personally, I'm a fan of zenarchy, the belief that perfect anarchy follows general enlightenment. It's both joke and serious theory.

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