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Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#41

Post by mcantelon »

rick888 wrote: post #29
mcantelon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1) Wikileaks is really pissing people off This is because what they're doing is effective. Ineffective things don't piss people off and trigger military disinfo campaigns. The author of the WPO blog article is an AEI member, a player in the neocon agenda: not some random pundit. >2) Assange has more power than many 3-star generals I'm fine with that. Assange isn't killing people. 3-star generals are. >3) Anarchy is…

"I'm fine with that. Assange isn't killing people. 3-star generals are." Yes he is. The information he released in the latest round of "secrets" gave away informants to people that can (and will) kill them. If he gave information about locations of jews to the Nazis, would we say it was freedom of information? "Government can function with much less secrecy than it currently does. WL is serving a public need in chall…

>Yes he is. The information he released in the latest round of "secrets" gave away informants to people that can (and will) kill them.

Specific examples would be great.

>If he gave information about locations of jews to the Nazis, would we say it was freedom of information?

The jews weren't attempting to occupy Germany at the time so probably not the most fitting comparison.

>That's because Obama knows the importance of secrets.

Absolutely. The truth can be politically damaging.

>Wikileaks failed to remove actual names. I don't see a difference.

Most people recognize the difference between dropping bombs on civilians and revealing the names of those involved in the killing trade.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#42

Post by zaphar »

OpieCunningham wrote: post #31
zaphar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U.S. government and military, who have a track record of keeping horrifying, god-awful secrets regarding their own misconduct. This is true. However Assande and Wikileaks have put over a hundred peoples lives directly in danger through their leaks as well as potentially thousands more. Which effectively puts them all the way on the other end of the spectrum. Your saying that putting 100's of peoples lives at risk in…

> Theres nothing wrong with pointing out that one way is just as bad as the status quo. Neither way is perfect - but that's far different from your equivocation. "Hundreds of people" possibly identified through the Wikileaks release pales in comparison to the tens or hundreds of thousands collaterally killed by the U.S. military.

Unless you can prove that the military is unnecessary and their absence would not prevent more bloodshed than they cause then I would say my equivocation is right on the money. So to echo the previous poster do you have an alternate solution to the military that doesn't involve an impossible mass change to the entire worlds mental and emotional state.

The military is an unfortunate but necessary evil that involves bloodshed for as long as people stay people.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#43

Post by itistoday »

Wikileaks, like Wikipedia, is one of the healthiest things to come out of the internet. The service it provides to the United States and the rest of the world is invaluable. The only group I see threatened here is that great "military-industrial complex," and that's fine by me.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#44

Post by beloch »

I work in cryptography. This field has taught me something rather applicable here:

It is far better to know your secrets are in the hands of your enemy than it is to not know when they are in the hands of your enemy.

If your secret stuff is released on Wikileaks, you know about it. You can take steps. e.g. Evacuate your informants before the Taliban whack 'em. If the Taliban get their hands on a list of CIA informants, without the CIA knowing, those guys would be screwed. As it stands they've got a fighting chance.

Wikileaks or sites like it are now a fact of life. If the CIA disappears Assange into some banana-republic torture-hole or simply assassinates him, his fate would most likely be leaked to Wikileaks successor. The cat is now out of the bag.

The U.S.'s only real option here, aside from investigating how that data was leaked in the first place, is to attempt to improve their ability to cope with leaks when they do happen. Time often makes all the difference, so they would be well served by developing a relationship with Assange. e.g. "You give us a 48-hour heads up when you leak something from us and we'll forgo atomizing your brains with precision guided explosives." It's not like Assange would have a choice if presented with such a deal. However embarrassing his assassination might be for the U.S., it will ensure that the next Wikileaks plays ball.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#45

Post by zaphar »

mcantelon wrote: post #22
zaphar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

U.S. government and military, who have a track record of keeping horrifying, god-awful secrets regarding their own misconduct. This is true. However Assande and Wikileaks have put over a hundred peoples lives directly in danger through their leaks as well as potentially thousands more. Which effectively puts them all the way on the other end of the spectrum. Your saying that putting 100's of peoples lives at risk in…

>This is true. However Assande and Wikileaks have put over a hundred peoples lives directly in danger through their leaks as well as potentially thousands more. Some examples of this would be great.

Read the article one intelligence officer and hundreds of Afghani informants have been revealed to the world including the folks who want them dead. Before the leak their potential killers didn't know who they were now they do. Assande has no intention of not revealing more information of the same sort in the future.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#46

Post by mcantelon »

tptacek wrote: post #36
mcantelon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1) Wikileaks is really pissing people off This is because what they're doing is effective. Ineffective things don't piss people off and trigger military disinfo campaigns. The author of the WPO blog article is an AEI member, a player in the neocon agenda: not some random pundit. >2) Assange has more power than many 3-star generals I'm fine with that. Assange isn't killing people. 3-star generals are. >3) Anarchy is…

When you call those prosecuting the US/NATO side of the conflict in Afghanistan "murderers", you run the risk of implicitly taking the side of US/NATO's adversaries, who in this case are the Taliban. Here's what I'm wondering: when did it become fashionable to stick up for the Taliban? The Taliban aren't the Sandinistas. The Taliban aren't the North Vietnamese Army. They aren't even Hezbollah. It is conceivable --- e…

>Here's what I'm wondering: when did it become fashionable to stick up for the Taliban?

When there are two groups of killers involved in a conflict recognizing the killing of one group doesn't mean one is excusing the killing of the other group.

If you are familiar with the history of the Taliban you are likely aware of the role the US played in their rise to power (http://nyti.ms/ddOTcu). The Taliban would likely not exist without the support of the US. The US didn't nurture the Taliban for the good of the people nor are they attempting to control Afghanistan for the good of the people.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#47

Post by tptacek »

mcantelon wrote: post #46
tptacek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you call those prosecuting the US/NATO side of the conflict in Afghanistan "murderers", you run the risk of implicitly taking the side of US/NATO's adversaries, who in this case are the Taliban. Here's what I'm wondering: when did it become fashionable to stick up for the Taliban? The Taliban aren't the Sandinistas. The Taliban aren't the North Vietnamese Army. They aren't even Hezbollah. It is conceivable --- e…

>Here's what I'm wondering: when did it become fashionable to stick up for the Taliban? When there are two groups of killers involved in a conflict recognizing the killing of one group doesn't mean one is excusing the killing of the other group. If you are familiar with the history of the Taliban you are likely aware of the role the US played in their rise to power ( http://nyti.ms/ddOTcu ). The Taliban would likely…

I don't understand why it matters that the US helped bring the Taliban to power. Help me understand why our culpability in the rise of the Taliban doesn't make us more obligated to eradicate them.

Please understand, I think that this article we're all commenting on is all the way at the crazytown other end of the spectrum on this issue. The notion that the US should be allowed to kidnap people in friendly countries and haul them back to the US for military trials is also repellent.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#48

Post by DjDarkman »

Assange is a hero to democracy, the government dirty secrets must be uncovered!

Those informants aided the war, they aided civilian slaughter that many US troops did for fun, so I guess if they get killed, they had it coming.

The war is [supposably] over, why does the US need to have so many secrets? Are they embarrassed that their army is full of sadistic murderers?

These short sighted people that write articles like this eat propaganda.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#49

Post by sliverstorm »

patrickaljord wrote: post #40
Synthetase wrote: post #5

"The Web site must be shut down and prevented from releasing more documents -- and its leadership brought to justice." The latter imperative might be achievable. The former is the height of delusion.

> The latter imperative might be achievable. It might be, but so might putting a replacement online a couple of days later.

'The latter' would be 'leadership brought to justice'. Read carefully.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#50

Post by fatguy »

petercooper wrote: post #34
vincentpants wrote: post #16

Wikileaks is the only place in the world where you can be a whistleblower without the threat of censorship or persecution. Sounds like two of the best things to happen to democracy in a long time.

.. until you're suspected of being the whistleblower, of course: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10529110

imho the government should step-in to prevent this prosecution, or this soldier should appeal on moral grounds. he was just exposing the wrongdoing of the military forces. the correct course of action would have been for the military personnel to release/punish the people that shot at the civilians (but that is not possible as the military writes these off as collateral damage). I am not too familiar with the us law system, but i hope i am making sense.
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