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Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

reuters.com

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Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#251

Post by srtjstjsj »

sliverstorm wrote: post #191
09094920394314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism. Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable? And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And wh…

Maybe 'not all unions' but several very large unions are responsible for some massive, fundamental problems we have today. E.g., cities are going bankrupt in large part tied to unions. I don't think it counts as FUD; even if 'not all unions', I think we have identified issues with the union structure that no one knows yet how to resolve, that will come back if unions come back. It's like trying to argue 'not all cops…

> E.g., cities are going bankrupt in large part tied to unions.

That's simply a libertarian + right-wing claim.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#252

Post by srtjstjsj »

stale2002 wrote: post #85
09094920394314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism. Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable? And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And wh…

How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave? If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

How about we change the laws so that people who support the US Government are free to pay taxes, and people who DON'T are free to renounce their citizenship but keep their residency and protections?

See the problem?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#253

Post by dpark »

_joe wrote: post #240
LoSboccacc wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The union in italy have been extremely damaging to the local economy in the last 20 years. You see national union goals are too distant and misaligned from workers’ For example one of the problem is that not all professions are unionized for example, so o get more profit and power the unions need to stifle innovation and steer the government only toward heavy industry to the destriment of almost every other sector Al…

What a whole bunch of inaccuracies. I have no time to waste rebutting all the multiple falsehoods in this post, but I want people living in other countries know that it is filled with inaccuracies and plain falsehoods.

No way. You can’t assert that someone is lying through their teeth and then utterly fail to provide even a single counterpoint. This is equivalent to yelling “fake news”.

The parent comment might be full of lies, but I’m actually more inclined to believe it when the best you can do is call them falsehoods with no evidence or argument.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#254

Post by srtjstjsj »

firstplacelast wrote: post #151
09094920394314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism. Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable? And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And wh…

Thanks for this. Every time unions are mentioned people want to turn it into a black/white issue and won't allow for shades of grey. Unions can be great for workers. They can also fuck up markets and/or workers. What's wrong with taking the good and improving the bad for unions in the 21st century? That's literally what 99% of the start-ups in Silicon Valley are doing in various verticals. The black/white thinking wh…

SV turning everyone into minimum-wage (or less) earning independent contractors, gutting benefits and worker protections, is fucking up workers.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#255

Post by srtjstjsj »

chrisco255 wrote: post #131
brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

Unions and expensive pensions contributed significantly to the bankruptcy of General Motors. If not for a government bail out we'd barely have an American auto industry.

Why aren't any of GM's competitors with US factories bankrupt?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#256

Post by srtjstjsj »

nindalf wrote: post #128

> The company said salaries paid to its workers were among the highest in the logistic sector and that it also provided some benefits such as private medical insurance or money to pay for training programs. Not a criticism of either Amazon or the unions but I would really appreciate it if news sources would verify these claims one way or another. Obviously as a wire service, that may not be Reuters' job but whether A…

Being a "wire service" doesn't remove their obligation to check claims of fact. Otherwise, they should print my claim that Amazon has the lowest benefits of any logistics company.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#257

Post by ittrow »

_joe wrote: post #240
LoSboccacc wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The union in italy have been extremely damaging to the local economy in the last 20 years. You see national union goals are too distant and misaligned from workers’ For example one of the problem is that not all professions are unionized for example, so o get more profit and power the unions need to stifle innovation and steer the government only toward heavy industry to the destriment of almost every other sector Al…

What a whole bunch of inaccuracies. I have no time to waste rebutting all the multiple falsehoods in this post, but I want people living in other countries know that it is filled with inaccuracies and plain falsehoods.

You are FUDding. I'm an Italian living in Italy, and I 100% agree with the parent comment. Also, I'd add that most members of Italian national unions are retired people, so unions mostly care about pensions,ending being often in contrast with younger workers interests (for instance, keeping retirement age low, even if it's one of the lowest in the EU). One must also consider that there's a strong divide between unionized, older workers with "permanent job" contracts, and younger workers with precarious jobs, whose issues are completely ignored by national unions.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#258

Post by srtjstjsj »

djsumdog wrote: post #53
oblio wrote: post #4

Now that's something I haven't heard about in the US for a few decades: strikes. I'm partly kidding, but have there been any major strikes in the US lately?

Strikers in US media are often belittled. Think back to the Occupy Movement. The banks were bailed out, none of those people who caused so much misery were ever put in jail, and the media belittled Occupy as being directionless and pointless. The protest was huge, stretching across cities and countries, but there was never any accountability for the banksters. It shows again as the Equifax execs were cleared of insid…

Occupy was the reverse of the strike -- it wasn't a bunch of workers refusing to work, it was a bunch of unemployed people protesting the unavailability of work.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#259

Post by dbg31415 »

oblio wrote: post #4

Now that's something I haven't heard about in the US for a few decades: strikes. I'm partly kidding, but have there been any major strikes in the US lately?

Teacher strikes count? You hear about them sometimes. Not very common though.

* Seattle Teachers Go on First Systemwide Strike in 30 Years After Talks Collapse - The New York Times || https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/10/us/seattle-teachers-go-on...

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#260

Post by srtjstjsj »

arethuza wrote: post #96
yodsanklai wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neoliberalism has tried to structure the economy in order to render strikes impossible by guaranteeing that they can't cause any real inconvenience. There's also a general message carried by the medias and politicians that neoliberalism is the only possible solution. People are discouraged to go on strike (or even to vote for alternative parties) even when they see their wages and their social benefits declining. T…

That's the TINA argument - "There Is No Alternative" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative Which is why some people in the UK hate the NHS so much, purely on ideological grounds, as it is an example of a popular, avowedly socialist, organisation that does work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_medicine_in_the_UK
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