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Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

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Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#91

Post by PakG1 »

djsumdog wrote: post #53
oblio wrote: post #4

Now that's something I haven't heard about in the US for a few decades: strikes. I'm partly kidding, but have there been any major strikes in the US lately?

Strikers in US media are often belittled. Think back to the Occupy Movement. The banks were bailed out, none of those people who caused so much misery were ever put in jail, and the media belittled Occupy as being directionless and pointless. The protest was huge, stretching across cities and countries, but there was never any accountability for the banksters. It shows again as the Equifax execs were cleared of insid…

I think the Occupy Movement is a poor comparison because that was a protest, not a strike. And I don't recall protesters in the Occupy Movement being belittled.

I agree that labourers may often get unfairly blamed when things go wrong. Corporate overlords can be also very harsh and unfair.

But it is difficult to differentiate between unions that have valid claims and unions that are just riding the gravy train with an iron grip and not adding value. These are very muddy waters, and truth is often hard to find.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#92

Post by chimeracoder »

Joeboy wrote: post #88
Ntrails wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not entirely true. The strike was over the fact that if not enough drivers _volunteered_ to do the night shifts, TFL could assign non volunteers. They would still be compensated for the work hours being particularly antisocial. It is also true that Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. The change was absolutely funded - just not as well as the union would…

> Tube drivers are well paid and yes that does impact the levels of sympathy available to them. £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London. Not if you consider it the kind of job where you should be able to afford luxuries like a family, a car, a mortgage, saving for retirement etc. It probably does sound like a lot to people who live outside London and / or aren't considering those thing…

> £55k isn't that well paid for people who have to live in or near London

It's more than the typical software engineer can expect to make in London.

Source: Glassdoor, Indeed, talking to colleagues who live in London, and my own memories from my last job search.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#93

Post by beavis2 »

I know this doesn't really apply to Amazon, however I think it's irresponsible striking on the companies busiest days.

If you want to keep your job, your company needs money. If you want better wages/conditions, your company needs more money.

With that said, I do wish the strikers luck.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#94

Post by cr1895 »

icebraining wrote: post #35
cybertronic wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but sadly, not Thanksgiving

Would be weird for a mostly Catholic country. In my corner of the European south we do celebrate St. Martin's Day, although with roasted chestnuts rather than turkey. And we drink piquette, which for some reason is illegal to sell in the EU nowadays.

>Would be weird for a mostly Catholic country.

How so? There's nothing explicitly religious about the holiday.

Just this morning I was reading this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/22/opinion/thanksgiving-reli...

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#95

Post by toomuchtodo »

stale2002 wrote: post #85
09094920394314 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism. Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable? And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And wh…

How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave? If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them.

Free rider problem. Same as “well, if you want government and society, pay taxes. If not, go ahead and opt out.”

Unions are only as good as their governance and oversight. Unions can be good, and work in partnership with management, but it takes time and effort. There is no one click button or app for collective protection of worker rights.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#96

Post by arethuza »

yodsanklai wrote: post #64
pjc50 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neoliberalism has tried to structure the economy in order to render strikes impossible by guaranteeing that they can't cause any real inconvenience. The "sharing economy" is merely the next generation of that: there's no workplace to picket and a "flexible" supply of labour willing to cross the picket anyway.

> Neoliberalism has tried to structure the economy in order to render strikes impossible by guaranteeing that they can't cause any real inconvenience. There's also a general message carried by the medias and politicians that neoliberalism is the only possible solution. People are discouraged to go on strike (or even to vote for alternative parties) even when they see their wages and their social benefits declining. T…

That's the TINA argument - "There Is No Alternative"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative

Which is why some people in the UK hate the NHS so much, purely on ideological grounds, as it is an example of a popular, avowedly socialist, organisation that does work.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#97

Post by TulliusCicero »

chimeracoder wrote: post #63
brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a "FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Similarly,…

> Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to.

Right-to-work laws are like prop 13 in California: sounds good on the surface, but hidden terrible impact.

On the surface, "I should be able to choose whether or not I join a union" makes sense, Americans love freedom and choice. But of course, in practice people who choose not to join a union get to freeload: they get most of the benefit of the union in how it informs a company's general policies and culture about workers, but don't have to pay any fees. And like most instances of the freeloader problem, the result is the responsible entity getting starved, as everyone wants the others to be the ones paying for the benefits.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#98

Post by tw04 »

chimeracoder wrote: post #63
brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a "FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Similarly,…

>This pattern isn't as simple to dismiss as "anti-union FUD", especially since it's seen among people who are already union members in closed shops.

You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point?

If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hear that unions just take my money while providing no benefit, I'm probably likely to be swayed. What's the union going to do? Tell me about how 50 years ago companies would literally put my life at risk because there was no downside for them. And then the people financing the anti-union movement are spewing "Well that was 50 years ago, that would NEVER happen again" - all while doing everything they can to drive up hours, drive down safety, and insulate themselves from any responsibility RE: workman's comp.

For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the bigger picture is often lost.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#99

Post by eloisant »

beavis2 wrote: post #93

I know this doesn't really apply to Amazon, however I think it's irresponsible striking on the companies busiest days. If you want to keep your job, your company needs money. If you want better wages/conditions, your company needs more money. With that said, I do wish the strikers luck.

At some point when the company is making tons of money but is screwing its employees, the only recourse the employees have is to do damage to the company to be heard.

Amazon is already drowning in money, Bezos is the richest man on earth, even more money is not going to convince them to treat their employees better. A bit less money is not going to sink Amazon.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#100

Post by chimeracoder »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #97
chimeracoder wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a "FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Similarly,…

> Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Right-to-work laws are like prop 13 in California: sounds good on the surface, but hidden terrible impact. On the surface, "I should be able to choose whether or not I join a union" makes sense, Americans lo…

> But of course, in practice people who choose not to join a union get to freeload: they get most of the benefit of the union in how it informs a company's general policies and culture about workers, but don't have to pay any fees

It doesn't sounds like they want any of those so-called benefits. As explained below, the data suggests that if members could feasibly decertify or deauthorize their unions entirely, they would.

Remember that, nationwide, only 7% of union members ever cast a vote in favor of their union. That means less than 7% voted against it, and the remainder never had an opportunity to vote at all.

It's not surprising that, in the absence of a safe way to decertify or deauthorize, some portion of the 86+% who never had the opportunity to vote supports laws that give them the next-best thing. (It's not just right-to-work laws, by the way, though that's the most frequently discussed at the national scale and therefore the most frequently polled).

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