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Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

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Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#91

Post by willstrafach »

walshemj wrote: post #88
willstrafach wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain this any further? I am also inclined to believe Kaspersky is in the wrong here, especially given the publicizing of personal data from a customer's computer for PR purposes, but I am having trouble understanding how the Espionage Act applies?

"As it is currently written, the Espionage Act of 1917 makes it a crime to hurt the United States or benefit a foreign country by collecting or communicating information that would harm the national defense. It is also a crime to enter an installation or obtain a document connected to the national defense in order to hurt the United States or benefit a foreign country. Knowingly receiving classified information that…

Interesting. That language gives me the idea that such prosecution could be very tricky, given the many instances of purported-classified information being relayed to press (In fact this would presumably apply to the information relating to Israel accessing Kaspersky systems and allegedly watching Russians exfil interesting data).

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#92

Post by jjawssd »

nickbauman wrote: post #72
ajross wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can say the same about every country No, you can't, except in some abstract sense that loses all meaning. In the west, it's routine to find wealthy and powerful members of the establishment pursue goals and policies that are directly opposed to the government with both success and failure. And of course these governments change hands relatively commonly. In Russia, there are no wealthy or powerful people pursui…

Condorcet's Secret aside, Russia is a Mafia State. This is where the state's military and paramilitary are deeply integrated with state-sponsored organized crime. So you have commandos and police both work systems of extortion, human and drug trafficking, money laundering, racketeering, war, espionage, etc. etc. It's a totally different thing than the garden variety corruption you find in western countries, ok?

Does selling influence in the state department count as "garden variety corruption you find in western countries"?

Does delivering Uranium to The Enemy in exchange for cash donations to a slush fund count as "garden variety corruption you find in western countries"?

Does employing El Salvadorian gangs in your nation's capital to intimidate and assassinate your political enemies count as "garden variety corruption you find in western countries"?

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#93

Post by lawnchair_larry »

Barrin92 wrote: post #86
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters, do you not see the huge logical leap going from naming a couple of executives who are close with Putin, to saying that ALL people in Russia with money or power are doing nothing but following Putin's agenda? What about the minor detail that the oligarchs existed not only before Putin, but before Yeltsin, his predecessor, as well (not that they didn't grow under Yeltsin, but still)? Most documentation th…

>What about the minor detail that the oligarchs existed not only before Putin, but before Yeltsin, his predecessor, as well (not that they didn't grow under Yeltsin, but still)? Nobody is doubting that. The country wasn't liberal or less oligarchic under Yeltsin, it was just as oligarchic under Soviet rule. Russia never meaningfully deviated from this course. And this doesn't just come from a 'westerner far removed f…

Not everyone would agree that things are good now, or perhaps not even anyone, but it seems like most agree that they have at least improved dramatically since Yeltsin. You're disagreeing with this and saying it has not meaningfully deviated?

Also, why do you believe that the corruption you experienced was because of the leader, rather than despite the leader's efforts?

I do not think anyone would even try to claim that Russia does not have a corruption problem. Putin himself has discussed it at length, particularly expressing frustration over how it cripples the economy, which is probably his biggest obsession.

Furthermore, and I am assuming here, but unless you're from an extremely important family, it seems unlikely that the flavor of corruption you would experience is even in the same universe as what the oligarchs and president are dealing with. This goes back to the idea of him being the mafia boss CEO of literally everything.

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#94

Post by Anderkent »

walshemj wrote: post #88
willstrafach wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain this any further? I am also inclined to believe Kaspersky is in the wrong here, especially given the publicizing of personal data from a customer's computer for PR purposes, but I am having trouble understanding how the Espionage Act applies?

"As it is currently written, the Espionage Act of 1917 makes it a crime to hurt the United States or benefit a foreign country by collecting or communicating information that would harm the national defense. It is also a crime to enter an installation or obtain a document connected to the national defense in order to hurt the United States or benefit a foreign country. Knowingly receiving classified information that…

How is accidentally downloading a document and then deleting it immediately 'knowingly receiving classified information'?

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#95

Post by chiefalchemist »

orf wrote: post #6

So an NSA contractor or employee takes confidential/highly sensitive code and documents home and leaves it on their machine. They then install a pirated version of Office, after disabling their antivirus software which is telling them it is infected with a virus and preventing the installation. Seems like massive incompetence from this user rather than Kaspersky doing anything malicious, and those files where destine…

When it comes to anything IC my rule of thumb is: we'll never know the truth. It's an "industry" that trades in misinformation, mis-misinformation and so on.

In this case, _if_ you buy into the arc of the story then I would say it was it was likely another family member who tried to do the pirated software. But that would be a massive faux pas. So there's likely other nips and tucks, etc.

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#96

Post by ajross »

jjawssd wrote: post #92
nickbauman wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Condorcet's Secret aside, Russia is a Mafia State. This is where the state's military and paramilitary are deeply integrated with state-sponsored organized crime. So you have commandos and police both work systems of extortion, human and drug trafficking, money laundering, racketeering, war, espionage, etc. etc. It's a totally different thing than the garden variety corruption you find in western countries, ok?

Does selling influence in the state department count as "garden variety corruption you find in western countries"? Does delivering Uranium to The Enemy in exchange for cash donations to a slush fund count as "garden variety corruption you find in western countries"? Does employing El Salvadorian gangs in your nation's capital to intimidate and assassinate your political enemies count as "garden variety corruption you…

> delivering Uranium to The Enemy

I have to admit, even in a subthread where I was sure we'd see conspiracy nuttery, this is not the conspiracy I would have expected. You realize this is a totally fabricated thing, right? The timing alone should tell you all you need to know about what the intent behind it was.

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#97

Post by chiefalchemist »

ajross wrote: post #70
RobertoG wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can say the same about every country. That's the nature of networks of power. Or in other words, when you operate a business of considerable size you start being part of the inner circle.

> You can say the same about every country No, you can't, except in some abstract sense that loses all meaning. In the west, it's routine to find wealthy and powerful members of the establishment pursue goals and policies that are directly opposed to the government with both success and failure. And of course these governments change hands relatively commonly. In Russia, there are no wealthy or powerful people pursui…

At the micro level there are certainly events that support your position. However, at the macro level the arc of history doesn't seem to bend in your favor.

And even if there are those who oppose, there are also those who do not - and the do nots often get favors, inside info, etc. The opposers aren't really a concern.

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#98

Post by kofejnik »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #73
ajross wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can say the same about every country No, you can't, except in some abstract sense that loses all meaning. In the west, it's routine to find wealthy and powerful members of the establishment pursue goals and policies that are directly opposed to the government with both success and failure. And of course these governments change hands relatively commonly. In Russia, there are no wealthy or powerful people pursui…

> "In Russia, there are no wealthy or powerful people pursuing anything but Putin's agenda. All those who tried have been removed, via various methods ranging from banal to horrifying." Where the hell do people come up with this? It's not only untrue, it's not even feasible.

seems like you've never set foot in Russia

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#99

Post by paganel »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #97
ajross wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can say the same about every country No, you can't, except in some abstract sense that loses all meaning. In the west, it's routine to find wealthy and powerful members of the establishment pursue goals and policies that are directly opposed to the government with both success and failure. And of course these governments change hands relatively commonly. In Russia, there are no wealthy or powerful people pursui…

At the micro level there are certainly events that support your position. However, at the macro level the arc of history doesn't seem to bend in your favor. And even if there are those who oppose, there are also those who do not - and the do nots often get favors, inside info, etc. The opposers aren't really a concern.

> However, at the macro level the arc of history doesn't seem to bend in your favor.

It doesn't get more macro than what happened to Khodorkovsky, who got his company (Russia's biggest at the time) stolen from him once Putin started consolidating his power (in the early 2000s). That's like the Democrats confiscating the Koch brothers' conglomerate business and putting them in prison, or like the Republicans doing the same thing to some big Hollywood media mogul. It's not going to happen.

Re: Kaspersky: Yes, we obtained NSA secrets. No, we didn’t help steal them

#100

Post by ajross »

collectively wrote: post #90
seppin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing that people don't see this still. Kaspersky insists that his company has an exception, and it "doesn't work like that", but it's hard to believe. And if you're part of the US IC, it'd be malpractice to believe him.

The nature of the relationship is unknown. Even if Kaspersky is bought by Putin in some way, it’s not clear what the terms and expectations are. It does seem unlikely that the commercial offering is straight up spyware for putin—why would anyone buy it? So it’s a little silly to talk about the relationship as if its existence is meaningful when the degree of ownership is the real question.

You're treating the question of "is Kaspersky spyware" in the sense of criminal law, requiring proof of guilt before enforcing punishment.

The grandparent was treating it in the sense of security analysis: requiring proof of safety before granting trust.

I know which paradigm I'd pick before installing an trusted piece of software that can literally snoop on the whole system. But, y'know, whatever. You be you.

Basically: almost the whole of the Russian economy has been subverted to serve the needs of Putin's government. What are the chances that Kaspersky alone has not? Seems low enough to maybe look elsewhere for your AV needs.

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