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Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

bloomberg.com

101–110 of 195 posts

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#101

I liked this article because the roll of the programmer on wall street has been going down recently from my perspective. Programmers used to work along side quants and were well respected. This was generally because practicing quants didn't used to be able to program. This was especially true in the 80s and 90's where programmers and quants where almost valued identically as one required the other to make things happ…

I apologize for the off the wall comment. Every time I read about wall street programming, I've got this subliminal voice in the back of my head wondering how anyone could find the motivation to do this work. I'm obviously revealing my biases against the financial industry here. Also, I'm unable to make myself do work if I don't see it contributing to some greater vision or cause. Are there people out there who love…

>farming money for a bunch of questionable people.

The "questionable people" include grandparents, firemen, teachers, etc with pensions and retirement funds.

>I don't see it contributing to some greater vision or cause. [...] I guess it's just a case of lack of empathy on my part.

Your sentiment is common and I think it's caused by people not connecting the dots from grandparents' retirement pension to the hedge fund trader.

As one example, at the micro level, grandparents are depending on a pension.[1] They also don't want their _real_ purchasing power to diminish. The "real" not "nominal" purchasing power is an important distinction because if the price of bread is $2 in 2017 but becomes $4 in 2037, they want to have adequate future money to buy food. In other words, they want their money to grow and keep up with inflation.

Your grandparents stashing money in a savings account paying less than 1% will not protect their purchasing power from inflation. Likewise, the pension manager that oversees a $1 billion retirement fund to pay retired teachers will declare it bankrupt if it only gets a 1% return by buying Treasury Bills. The pension's assumptions to avoid insolvency might require 8% or better annual returns.

Therefore, all these participants in the economy are looking for better returns. You can't get 8% from savings accounts and t-bills. That's where money managers like private equity, hedge funds, and VCs in Silicon Valley come in. They sell their ability to generate higher returns. This expertise attracts capital from entities like pension funds.

So basically, a bunch of programmers are fine tuning algorithms because [...connect a bunch of dots...] your grandmother doesn't want to be a starving destitute and live under a bridge in her retirement years. If you multiply millions of everyday people not wanting to be destitute (macro level), you end up with hedge fund managers with billions to play with.

That said, can we "reconfigure society" so that all this competitive activity of shuffling money from one pile to another isn't done? Maybe. It would involve fundamental changes that we all can't agree on. For example, if you stop inflation you can stop the incentive to generate returns that try to beat inflation; but then some would say that "deflation" would lead to people hoarding money and the economy would crash. Inflation is the current winning ideology for the modern economy. It's hard to see how we could alter society such that Wall Street traders go away.

[1] for example, the $300 billion California Public Employees pension fund provides these benefits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CalPERS#Benefits

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#103

I wonder if this will see an ability to more easily switch into fintech/banking as a developer working in various other industries. I worked with GS via a mobile agency for a while and really respected the developers and what they were doing from an engineering PoV. I had always viewed that industry as essentially closed unless you got in straight after graduating. Has anyone ever made the switch into an engineering…

Not working on a fintech but FWIW I work on trading platforms for a well-known investment bank. Getting in was not particularly difficult but even with some experience you may need to network with someone on the inside to get your resume in front of the right recruiter, simply submitting your resume via the usual channels appears to be a crapshoot (though I had never applied here because I wasn't aware they were in town)

My salary is quite average for the role/seniority level and AFAICT it's resented by many developers who work here because many will trade their "in" on their industry into more interesting fintech/banking work elsewhere somewhere down the line for higher compensation.

Knowledge of financial transactions is definitely highly specialized and I don't have nearly enough of it yet but it has started to sink in

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#104

I liked this article because the roll of the programmer on wall street has been going down recently from my perspective. Programmers used to work along side quants and were well respected. This was generally because practicing quants didn't used to be able to program. This was especially true in the 80s and 90's where programmers and quants where almost valued identically as one required the other to make things happ…

I apologize for the off the wall comment. Every time I read about wall street programming, I've got this subliminal voice in the back of my head wondering how anyone could find the motivation to do this work. I'm obviously revealing my biases against the financial industry here. Also, I'm unable to make myself do work if I don't see it contributing to some greater vision or cause. Are there people out there who love…

You wouldn’t be able to type this comment on your computer (and neither would I) were it not for financial markets to organize funding for the company that produces your device. Or you might not have gotten a mortgage to buy your home.

Financial markets serve a hugely important social function of allocating capital (intermediating between people who have money and those who need money).

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#105

I liked this article because the roll of the programmer on wall street has been going down recently from my perspective. Programmers used to work along side quants and were well respected. This was generally because practicing quants didn't used to be able to program. This was especially true in the 80s and 90's where programmers and quants where almost valued identically as one required the other to make things happ…

I apologize for the off the wall comment. Every time I read about wall street programming, I've got this subliminal voice in the back of my head wondering how anyone could find the motivation to do this work. I'm obviously revealing my biases against the financial industry here. Also, I'm unable to make myself do work if I don't see it contributing to some greater vision or cause. Are there people out there who love…

Finance is a vast world and unfortunately too often reduced to pure speculation.

First you have basic lending and borrowing activities. The bank can afford to pay you interest (well not now that interest rates are at zero) only because your money is invested, usually in loans.

Then you have payments, cash management for companies.

Then you have more complex services offered to larger companies, raising capital (equity and debt) on the market, helping them manage their risk with derivatives (interest rate, currency, commodities (oil, metals, livestock, etc prices), inflation, etc) plus some advisory on corporate actions (mergers, IPOs, etc).

You have insurance, reinsurance.

And then you have asset management, which you can call speculation if you want, but which is essentially people managing investment portfolios on behalf of savers, pension funds, insurance premium for long term risks, etc. With a wide variety of approaches from very conservative money market funds which invest in highly safe and liquid assets, to trackers who try to replicate a benchmark by over performing it by a little, to investments in illiquid assets (property, non listed companies) or very aggressive/leveraged strategies (hedge funds). Fundamentally what they are doing is to ensure your money gets invested wisely (at least they try).

And of course all sorts of intermediaries: consultants, brokers, market data providers, research (sort of financial journalists), prime brokers (who provide financing when you leverage liquid financial assets), system providers, auditors, rating agencies, etc.

Now you could call everything speculation: when a bank lends you money, it bets on your financial soundness. When an investor takes the opposite side of a commodity (say oil) transaction, it bets on the price of oil. But that allowed you to get money to run a business or to offset an oil price risk that could have made you lose money if oil increased (say your are an airline company). There is no real dinstinction between risk taking / risk transfer and speculation. But in most instances it does have a social benefit.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#106

I liked this article because the roll of the programmer on wall street has been going down recently from my perspective. Programmers used to work along side quants and were well respected. This was generally because practicing quants didn't used to be able to program. This was especially true in the 80s and 90's where programmers and quants where almost valued identically as one required the other to make things happ…

> This, coupled with the fact that few programmers were trained in fields like stochastic calc, Anecdotally though, I've met plenty of coders who did this to themselves by refusing to learn more about the domain or the business. They basically silo'd themselves, then wondered why their colleagues didn't treat them as an integral part of the team when they couldn't speak the language or understand the concerns. Taught…

>Anecdotally though, I've met plenty of coders who did this to themselves by refusing to learn more about the domain or the business.

Anything outside of learning enough to do your job should be at the business's expense.

1) some fields are not good for self-teaching. It leaves the possibility open to misunderstanding and writing code to that misunderstanding

2) the business will probably have a good idea of conferences and workshops that impart the knowledge the business is looking for

3) this is more fuel for "unpaid studying outside of work hours"

Based on posts like this, it seems really dumb to enter software first -- better to get a degree in some other technical field and just teach yourself to code.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This, coupled with the fact that few programmers were trained in fields like stochastic calc, Anecdotally though, I've met plenty of coders who did this to themselves by refusing to learn more about the domain or the business. They basically silo'd themselves, then wondered why their colleagues didn't treat them as an integral part of the team when they couldn't speak the language or understand the concerns. Taught…

>Anecdotally though, I've met plenty of coders who did this to themselves by refusing to learn more about the domain or the business. Anything outside of learning enough to do your job should be at the business's expense. 1) some fields are not good for self-teaching. It leaves the possibility open to misunderstanding and writing code to that misunderstanding 2) the business will probably have a good idea of conferen…

If it increases your value and allows you to demand a higher salary, that is at the businesses expense. You are a business expense.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This, coupled with the fact that few programmers were trained in fields like stochastic calc, Anecdotally though, I've met plenty of coders who did this to themselves by refusing to learn more about the domain or the business. They basically silo'd themselves, then wondered why their colleagues didn't treat them as an integral part of the team when they couldn't speak the language or understand the concerns. Taught…

>Anecdotally though, I've met plenty of coders who did this to themselves by refusing to learn more about the domain or the business. Anything outside of learning enough to do your job should be at the business's expense. 1) some fields are not good for self-teaching. It leaves the possibility open to misunderstanding and writing code to that misunderstanding 2) the business will probably have a good idea of conferen…

In many environments, you probably can do a lot of that learning at work, just by talking more than strictly necessary to people having the knowledge.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anecdotally though, I've met plenty of coders who did this to themselves by refusing to learn more about the domain or the business. Anything outside of learning enough to do your job should be at the business's expense. 1) some fields are not good for self-teaching. It leaves the possibility open to misunderstanding and writing code to that misunderstanding 2) the business will probably have a good idea of conferen…

If it increases your value and allows you to demand a higher salary, that is at the businesses expense. You are a business expense.

It'd add even more value if companies spent more on proper training. Maybe even training geared for software devs learning the field from that perspective if that's available.

But if they think I can become a domain expert by reading junk on the internet with no one really verifying my skills, I'm happy to take their paycheck.

Re: Coders who trade: Wall Street designs its staff for the future

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t close your mind to it. Finance attracts “questionable people” but finance is also very interesting on many levels and is a central part of life. Work through some finance math. Calculate an IRR. See how it works. If anything there’s a lot of great human history in it.

Thanks. I'm trying to be diplomatic here with my criticism and appreciate the positive and informative responses despite my negativity. You are right, finance is critical to social function and perhaps I've only been focusing on the negative aspects.

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