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Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

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Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#31

Post by whichdan »

fosk wrote: post #26
whichdan wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"people who aren't white guys (assuming they can do the job.)" This sort of language is problematic and harmful in that it implies that "white guys" (not even white people, just men) by default can always "do the job," and that anyone outside of that group must be judged to some sort of different standard. It makes it challenging to talk about diversity when statements start off with racist and sexist undertones.

Oh come on, you know what he meant. This is getting to a point that even genuinely talking about it, and rightly so, risks backfiring at you because there’s always somebody willing to make 10 extra mental steps to find it offensive.

They could have easily omitted the "assuming they can do the job" part without affecting the statement. There's a reason that it was added.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#32

Post by omegaworks »

jasode wrote: post #24
cgore wrote: post #2

I'm a white guy. I'm a software engineer. I'm totally cool with hiring people who aren't white guys (assuming they can do the job.) It seems that Denise Young Smith understands that, but there's a weird fringe of the extreme left that only sees headcounts by color and gender, and only sees me as "a white guy", and only sees others as "an ", and it's sad that a black woman got fired for being reasonable instead of hav…

To use the fired Apple employees idea that diversity is multidimensional , you might have the following situations: Group 1: 1) white man (Democrat Stanford grad) 2) white woman (Democrat Stanford grad) 3) black man (Democrat Stanford grad) Group 2: 1) white man (Democrat Stanford grad) 2) white man (Libertarian Kansas kid self-taught) 3) white man (South Africa bootcamp grad) Depending on what's important, Group 2 w…

* Why assume Group 2 has, or can produce, higher-valued thoughts?

* Why are there only three seats at the table?

Diversity and inclusion is about analyzing and addressing systemic assumptions and the arbitrary, exclusionary constraints we put on ourselves as an industry.

Contrived hypothetical scenarios fail to frame the real problem because those contrived scenarios are exactly what good policies push back against.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#33

Post by whatyoucantsay »

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #27
whatyoucantsay wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am referring to the way many on the far left speak of intersectionality as a number of diversity or victimhood points to be tallied. The truth is, like many multivariate functions, more complex. Here is an example. Being male is not a privilege for a young black man being stopped by a police officer in the United States. On the contrary, it greatly increases the odds he will soon be unjustly killed. Similarly, bein…

Most intersectionality can be seen as simplistic statistical modeling that has flaws (such as male not being a benefit whenever the legal system is involved). I don't actually think the theory is wrong, but I do think the current models are way too simple and more often than not picked not for their correctness but their usefulness in achieving political goals.

Agreed. In many ways complexity is the enemy of politics.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#34

Post by dragonwriter »

whatyoucantsay wrote: post #19
dragonwriter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The far left often misses how multi-dimensional concepts like diversity or privilege are I think you are confusing the shallow tribal identity groups with weak ideological consciousness on the left with the far left; the complex multidimensional nature of diversity and privilege is pretty much the core of intersectionality, which is a pretty key concept for the left, especially (much of) the far left. Or you're tal…

I am referring to the way many on the far left speak of intersectionality as a number of diversity or victimhood points to be tallied. The truth is, like many multivariate functions, more complex. Here is an example. Being male is not a privilege for a young black man being stopped by a police officer in the United States. On the contrary, it greatly increases the odds he will soon be unjustly killed. Similarly, bein…

> I am referring to the way many on the far left speak of intersectionality as a number of diversity or victimhood points to be tallied.

IME, to the extent that occurs, that's not at all typical of the far left, but (to the extent it happens at all), the weakly-ideology tribal-identity left.

> Here is an example. Being male is not a privilege for a young black man being stopped by a police officer in the United States.

It actually is in some ways; the ways gender interacts with race in that scenario is complex.

> On the contrary, it greatly increases the odds he will soon be unjustly killed.

It greatly increases the chance of being unjustly subject to non-sexual violence by the police; OTOH, it very much seems to (though numbers are much harder to come by) greatly decrease the chance of being subject to sexual violence by the police. Now, police sexual assault gets less attention (for many of the same reasons sexual assault more generally doesn't, regarding publicity being retraumatizing for victims, etc.), But it's a serious issue, with significant racial aspects, too.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#35

Post by vixen99 »

Apple: "We deeply believe that diversity drives innovation”.

The company is certainly innovative but it's predominantly (2017) white and male but on the other hand Apple don't say what % diversity is needed to do this driving. Don't they just choose employees on merit irrespective of any other consideration? They'd be dumb if they didn't.

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-releases-2017-diversity...

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#36

Post by dilap »

jasode wrote: post #24
cgore wrote: post #2

I'm a white guy. I'm a software engineer. I'm totally cool with hiring people who aren't white guys (assuming they can do the job.) It seems that Denise Young Smith understands that, but there's a weird fringe of the extreme left that only sees headcounts by color and gender, and only sees me as "a white guy", and only sees others as "an ", and it's sad that a black woman got fired for being reasonable instead of hav…

To use the fired Apple employees idea that diversity is multidimensional , you might have the following situations: Group 1: 1) white man (Democrat Stanford grad) 2) white woman (Democrat Stanford grad) 3) black man (Democrat Stanford grad) Group 2: 1) white man (Democrat Stanford grad) 2) white man (Libertarian Kansas kid self-taught) 3) white man (South Africa bootcamp grad) Depending on what's important, Group 2 w…

nah, it wasn’t missing nuance — this idea, as you expressed it, is considered unacceptable by many people right now.

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#37

Post by sctb »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #18
cgore wrote: post #2

I'm a white guy. I'm a software engineer. I'm totally cool with hiring people who aren't white guys (assuming they can do the job.) It seems that Denise Young Smith understands that, but there's a weird fringe of the extreme left that only sees headcounts by color and gender, and only sees me as "a white guy", and only sees others as "an ", and it's sad that a black woman got fired for being reasonable instead of hav…

The left, outside of Silicon Valley, sees you as the enemy, the instigator of racism, sexism, and any other isms they can apply. They want you replaced with people of color and women as fast as possible. Inside of Silicon Valley, you're seen as this benevolent majority, surely appreciative of diversity, eager to break up the white privilege, and promote justice for those left behind....someday, but not today. There's…

You can keep your moniker, but we ban accounts that use Hacker News primarily for ideological and political battle—regardless of which ideology. Please change this now.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#39

Post by yedava »

exabrial wrote: post #25

The more stuff I see like this, the more I'm convinced the only way to actually help diversity along is a free market solution. Instead of demanding quotas, just have the data available publically. The reasons are many, but the biggest is that I feel that hiring people that are bad at their job but have some physical characteristic, will make the problem much worse in the long run by "proving the biased people right"…

People can learn on the job and can become not 'bad', right? Or is it the case that some set of people have some innate quality that makes them always be bad at a job?

Re: Apple’s diversity chief out after outcry

#40

Post by tscs37 »

lovich wrote: post #11

Whatever your views on diversity are, I think we can all agree that the subject is so politically charged right now that this job is going to be like the Defense Against the Dark Arts position at Hogwarts

Curiously, I think the DADA is probably a safer job consider you survive most of a year on average.
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