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On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

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Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#301

Post by humanrebar »

extra88 wrote: post #272
humanrebar wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unconscious bias, which by definition does not include intent, can still be a form of racism. I think there's little utility to this version of racism outside of discussions about sociology. In particular, there's no real way to show someone is not racist given this definition. So if someone was determined to be unconsciously racist, there's nothing really to do be done about it since there's no way to get a "clean…

Ah, but there is something that can be done. When one is made aware of their unconscious biases, they can make conscious decisions to counteract them. The point is not to label people as racist, but thoughts, beliefs, and actions as racist.

I think you're missing my point, which is that without an objective way to identify "racism", it becomes an exercise in exerting power more than an impartial pursuit of fairness and equality.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#302

Post by asddddd »

pc86 wrote: post #129
Veelox wrote: post #61

I grew up in the Midwest and moved to Silicon Valley. I think that people here don't understand what this author describes as "Midwestern history is a study in racial quarantine." I would go as far as to say that racial is the wrong word to describe what happens in the Midwest. I think that communities in the Midwest have tighter cultural restrictions on what it means to be "one of us." This can be affected by where…

How about not treating people differently based on which community they come from?

In other words: treat your friends the same as strangers, or at least choose them completely randomly to avoid bias.

This strikes me as unrealistic.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#303

Post by humanrebar »

exelius wrote: post #275
humanrebar wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we all do racist things, but very few of us are racist That's confusing because you're using two different definitions of the word "racist" in the same sentence. At some point we should do everyone a favor and use two words when we mean two things.

They’re the same word describing different things. Many white people are aghast at being accused of doing something racist because it implies that they themselves are racist. It shouldn’t, and it hampers the conversation to imply it does (the same logic can be applied to sexism and most other isms as well). Not saying there aren’t racists out there (lol tiki torches), but most people don’t fall into that category.

Surely you see the issue when the same word describes perhaps the worst atrocities in human history and something people can't help being or doing. The implication is that people can't help but be the scum of the earth.

Two words for two concepts would decrease the stakes of the conversation and perhaps make room for some actual understanding and progress.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#304

Post by ryandrake »

CodeCube wrote: post #220
Oxitendwe wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does a chinese family moving into an italian neighborhood all of a sudden mean that no one can open an italian restaurant? No. It does mean a lot of other things though, like a vastly increased chance of chinese/italian intermarriage for their descendants, which means their descendants will not share your ethnic identity - it will be destroyed. Whether you think that's a good or a bad thing is an entirely different…

There it is ... respectfully, I hope your mindset is extinguished and rendered extinct soon. Disrespectfully ... well, I won't share my disrespectful thoughts here; just know that they exist.

I give the guy credit for at least admitting his point of view, disgusting as it is. We can down-vote him on HN and wish extinction upon his mindset, but the scary reality is, at least in the U.S. that his mindset is now spreading, after a long period of time where it was declining.

It's not enough to hope that it's extinguished--you have to actively fight it.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#305

Post by Zarath »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #144
wolco wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you remove race the issue is with poor/rich

It's always been about socioeconomic classes, but the best proxy for it is race (or how you look...). If there were something more obvious, such as giant face tattoos or being obese and wearing mismatched/sloppy clothing, then we could use that too to infer which socioeconomic classes they are in and how they are likely to act.

So what you're really saying is that it's about culture. And that class is very highly correlated to culture

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#306

Post by sctb »

Oxitendwe wrote: post #194
twblalock wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but that's correct under the explanation of racism given by the parent comment (which is not merely the left-wing view, but the consensus academic view). The example about divesting from a neighborhood due to concerns about property value is spot-on. In a systematically racist society, it is rational to behave in ways that produce racist outcomes even one does not person…

The Catholic Church called, they want their original sin back.

Could you please post civilly and substantively here, or not at all?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#307

Post by exclusiv »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #112
domparise wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking also as a Midwesterner, I would disagree. I was born and raised in Michigan, and have not really left much other than to couch hop and envy the lives of my friends who've moved out to the coast. I feel that the contempt the author descends into is self-inflicted, and may representative of the culture and authors midwestern upbringing. From what I've observed, midwesterners are brutally humble, almost to a fa…

>From what I've observed, midwesterners are brutally humble, almost to a fault, probably stemming from the deeply rooted conservative values. Being midwestern, to me, is not its own identity, but rather a lack of the other negative identities of the regions. Speaking in terms of stereotypes I hear here (not trying to discredit these regions) the vibe is: I'm NOT a no-patience jerk like on the east coast, I'm NOT lazy…

Although I don't agree with all the negative identities the parent posted on the different regions, you twisted the parent's comment. "a lack of the other negative identities of the regions" doesn't mean they're xenophobic.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#308

Post by weberc2 »

throwawayjava wrote: post #290
weberc2 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My suggestion is that people stop being so damn concerned about their moral status and start caring more about actually fixing things. This is silly. Moral status is a necessary component of political capital. The entire reason the progressive left stuck to their confusing "systemic racism" term is because it conveniently allows them to strip dissidents and critics of the political capital necessary to implement th…

What alternative term would you use to refer to racially disparate outcomes that are the result of how large systems operate? The term "systemic racism" was coined and stuck because it's evocative of the actual idea, not as some sort of grand conspiracy to strip you of your honor. But I don't care. We can call it "silly putty" if it means we can actually talk about it instead of closely defending our honor. And if yo…

It's hard to believe you care about advancing the conversation when you respond with straw men and ad hominems. Of course, I'm used to it because I challenge positions like yours a lot. Still, the constant need to redirect these bad faith rebuttals is exhausting.

To be clear, I don't care much for "my honor". Like I said, I care about making good outcomes politically tenable. As for conspiracy theories, that's literally what "systemic racism" is. And we could talk about it if it weren't for all of the weasel words and slander.

If you cared about the conversation, you'd be trying to get rid of the weasel words instead of attacking the people who call them out.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#309

Post by RickJWag »

I was raised in Mitchell, South Dakota, a midwest town of about 15,000.

The vast majority were white, a small number of Native Americans (we all called them Indians back then) and just one black family. The black family's father was elected mayor, he was popular.

There was some racism, not as much as people seem to think. IMHO, I've seen more racism in bigger cities.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#310

Post by rhcom2 »

[deleted] wrote: post #271
rhcom2 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't create the mother example but it's the same with the slaver holder. Even with a non-racist intent, supporting and participating in a racist system is still racist - no matter the justification or motivations. I think you are defining racism so narrowly it only defines people who state "I'm superior to this race" where their actions alone can never be racist unless they say that. I already replied to the torn…

[deleted]

Racism is a set of beliefs. Tornados, door knobs, planets, these things can't have beliefs - only people can - which is why the argument makes no sense.

I really hope you read this CNN article in full but here is a quote that I believe directly applies to your argument:

> "When some whites talk about racism, they think it's only personal -- what one person says or does to another. But many minorities and people who study race say racism can be impersonal, calculating, devoid of malice..."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-b...

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