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On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

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Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#191

Post by colanderman »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #184
colanderman wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devaluing those who don't conform to local cultural norms destigmatizes violence against them. If you promulgate the belief that cultures should not mix, you cannot disavow blame for violence committed against those of a minority culture just because you personally didn't raise a hand against them. > If someone walked down the streets naked, would you not think they're crazy? If a man wanted to stone a gay person, or…

> If you promulgate the belief that cultures should not mix, you cannot disavow blame for violence committed against those of another culture just because you personally didn't raise a hand against them. This is a slippery slope fallacy, saying any sort of action in one direction will lead to or promote violence. A lot can be accomplished without violence. > You are conflating laws with culture to make a strawman. No…

> Where did I mention a violent-religious-fundamentalism-nudist culture?

By mentioning "stoning", "shunning", and "nudism" as "examples" of different cultures. That's absurd, as absurd as my joke combining the three.

Let me reword your hypotheticals. If someone walked down the street in a hijab, would you think they're "crazy"? If someone celebrated different holidays than you, prayed to different gods, or spoke a minority dialect of English, would you look at that person with disdain?

Because many people do. Many of the same ones who "don't like multiculturalism". And that's the racism that minorities encounter in this country, day in, day out.

And, regarding "slippery slope", consider that desire for cultural homogeneity has no history of correlation with violence in this country. [1] [2] [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_integration_in_the_Unit...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_school_desegregati...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Miss_riot_of_1962

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#192

Post by lloyd-christmas »

mcguire wrote: post #149
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does anyone have suggestions on how to fix this? One option would be to have the cultures integrate so there are not sub communities for PoC. This doesn't seem to have worked. But the other option is that you expect Midwesterners to treat people from outside their community the same as people inside their community. That isn't going to happen. So it seems like it is an impossible situation. From my outside perspecti…

So, you are arguing that New Yorkers don't make a distinction between themselves and not-New Yorkers? I've never lived in New York; what about all those sitcom references to the differences between Manhattenites and Brooklyners? Or the Bronx? How can I, as a random Texan, tell the difference between someone from Gramercy Park and someone from New Jersey? (The part of me that wants to watch the world burn would like t…

It's worth noting that "non-New Yorkers" are few and far between in NY. Regardless of accent, skin color, socio-economic status, or where you lived last year, you're a New Yorker if you've taken the subway without looking at the map or yelled at that cabby that inched just too much into the crosswalk. I was born in Manhattan, I grew up in Westchester, I've lived in Manhattan as an adult, and I currently live in Brooklyn. I have many friends without US citizenship that I refer to as New Yorkers. The only people I truly consider non-NYers, are people who don't actually want to be here or take advantage of what it has to offer. I have a co-worker from North Dakota who, after 3 years living here, still hasn't stepped foot outside Manhattan. Those are the non-New Yorkers.

It's also worth contrasting that with my sister who has lived in Raleigh for almost 10 years now. They still call her a "Yankee".

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#193

Post by gowld »

Oxitendwe wrote: post #160
Veelox wrote: post #61

I grew up in the Midwest and moved to Silicon Valley. I think that people here don't understand what this author describes as "Midwestern history is a study in racial quarantine." I would go as far as to say that racial is the wrong word to describe what happens in the Midwest. I think that communities in the Midwest have tighter cultural restrictions on what it means to be "one of us." This can be affected by where…

>Does anyone have suggestions on how to fix this? One option would be to have the cultures integrate so there are not sub communities for PoC. I find it a bit insane that people think that this is even something that needs to be fixed - why can't different ethnic groups live among themselves, instead of being required to lose their ethnic identity and become part of the larger group? Do you seriously think that's wha…

If you ethnic identity is so weak that the only way to preserve is to make babies and indoctrinate them and hide them away from all other ethnic ideas, then maybe your ethnic identity is obsolete.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#194

Post by Oxitendwe »

twblalock wrote: post #190
Oxitendwe wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, to put it a different way, "You don't actually need to be racist in order to be racist."

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but that's correct under the explanation of racism given by the parent comment (which is not merely the left-wing view, but the consensus academic view). The example about divesting from a neighborhood due to concerns about property value is spot-on. In a systematically racist society, it is rational to behave in ways that produce racist outcomes even one does not person…

The Catholic Church called, they want their original sin back.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#195

Post by tptacek »

ams6110 wrote: post #151
throwaway15814 wrote: post #10

Just moved out of the midwest.. I was originally from the East coast and moved back. I'll just say this, being a minority, I was shocked at how much contempt people had towards middle-easterners and black people. On numerous occasions people have said they've been "dirtying up the neighborhoods which is why they moved to another burb... they need to take better care of their lawns, etc". Out of all the companies that…

> There's a reason why Chicago was the only major city to drop in population the last couple of years. It's because it's a shithole. Expensive, but salaries are midwest-grade; weather sucks almost year-round; the government is as corrupt as a two headed snake; one of the most segregated cities in the world; and has a huge violent crime problem.

It's "expensive" relative to the rest of the midwest, but far less expensive than SFBA or NYC. It's a huge city with all of the features of a huge city where you can get a nice apartment in a trendy neighborhood for $1500.

It's not a place to live if you want SFBA weather patterns, that's true.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#196

Post by lloyd-christmas »

JamesBarney wrote: post #188
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't really make distinctions between fellow New Yorkers based on the kinds of tiny differences described. Our distribution has much more variance, so we need to go "further out" before we actually care. Like, New Jerseyans think New Yorkers are snobby, New Yorkers think New Jerseyans are sleazy and uncultured, but you'd never, ever expect people to have a problem working or living together because of the differe…

Being willing to work together is a low bar for discrimination. A lower bar would be more likely to hire someone with equivalent credentials. I imagine if you looked into it, New Yorkers would be much more likely to hire a New Yorkers over a New Jerseyan with similar credentials.

I sincerely doubt that. New Jersey is just a suburb of NY along with Westchester, Nassau, and Fairfield, CT.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#197

Post by evanlivingston »

colechristensen wrote: post #114
evanlivingston wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing a familiarity with a good chunk of the history of systematic racism in the U.S. There are reasons homogeneous communities form in the U.S. A few of those reasons have to do with city planning and legislation. City planning can be racist in nature and promote exclusionary communities. Redlining, while not typically state legislation, is a good example of practices that contributed to the formati…

What you're missing is that growing up there simply _weren't_ people outside my community/culture. It was much less about systematic racism and much more about who chose to immigrate to specific regions in the late 19th century. What you're talking about are things that happened in larger cities, but that's not the whole world and that doesn't match the history of much of the midwest. The parent was right, if there i…

My point is that there is a reason there weren't people outside of your community/culture. Looks at maps used for redlining https://dsl.richmond.edu/panorama/redlining/#loc=5/37.510/-9... and tell me you don't see a concentration of them in the midwest. These policies were effective during a timeline that would strongly influence and limit the diversity you saw growing up.

Cultural conditions created an environment that was welcoming to white people and hostile to PoC.

Look at the history the history of the KKK in my home state of Indiana https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Klan and tell me you don't see widespread organized racism in it's past.

We didn't see racial hatred growing up because our grandparents and their parents contributed to the conditions where there simply were not people of color. That and because subtle racial prejudices were more easily normalized by a distinct lack of larger communities of color.

I look at the emails I get from representatives in Indiana and I'm baffled by the issues they present: undocumented citizens, Islamic terrorism, etc... Communities in the midwest intentionally isolate themselves from people they perceive as "others". How is that anything other than racism?

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#198

Post by tptacek »

mikestew wrote: post #48
throwaway15814 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why'd you move out of Indiana my friend? |So you’re saying you absolutley lack the ability to fathom why someone might not share your enthusiasm? Also I can empathize why people are against Tesla, it's just the general mindset in the midwest when it comes to new technologies. There's no wrong or right it's just the way life is out there.

One -27F January day, I looked at my wife and said, “this is America, and we don’t have to live like this.” So we moved to North Carolina, then eventually got a gig with Microsoft. Haven’t worked at Microsoft in twelve years, but Seattle area suits us so we never left. Also I can empathize why people are against Tesla, it's just the general mindset in the midwest when it comes to new technologies. More than just the…

Chicago politics are not conservative; it is one of the country's most stalwart Democratic bastions. (Politics here are problematic for other reasons).

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#199

Post by throwawayjava »

mcguire wrote: post #155
throwawayjava wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(It's worth noting that, while this sort of thing comes up a lot in the context of the midwest, the midwest isn't special in this regard.) > I think that communities in the Midwest have tighter cultural restrictions on what it means to be "one of us." The genetic basis for delineating "races" is sketchy at best. The cultural aspects are as important as skin color to the definition of race, which is why either the fir…

All human communities like to define themselves in terms of in-groups and out-groups. All of them, including this one. In the Midwest, you have to make the decisions finer since most people around really are indistinguishable on the usual terms.

I think the truth of that statement largely depends upon which "midwest" you're talking about.

It's certainly not true in the suburbs around the mid-sized cities in the midwest. Or the smaller manufacturing towns in the rust belt.

It may be true in the more rural areas of Minnesota or Kansas, though.

Re: On Being Midwestern: The Burden of Normality

#200

Post by notfromhere »

mcguire wrote: post #140

The author here implicitly assumes the truth of the descriptions of the Midwest and Midwesterners that he discusses. Further, also assumes that nothing changes, nothing happens in the Midwest. (I particularly liked the intro; now try describing the Midwest to someone who doesn't actually love there .) Everyone is from the Midwest or describing the Midwest, no one seems to be living there. Here's a hint: there is no M…

Lumping the west plains and midwest together into one region seems weird. In my mind, midwest is purely the great lakes states.
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