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Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

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Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#141

Post by smn1234 »

roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

perhaps a bit controversial but there's the viewpoint that college and the degree you pay for is simply access to a social network / community where as outcome hands-on, trade skills aren't necessary in the chosen career path

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#142

Post by draugadrotten »

muzani wrote: post #135
ransom1538 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed+. This is anecdotal, but I tried recently to get roof repairs made in CA for a rental home I own. I called 20+ roofers none of whom are taking new projects. I was able to get one quote from a friend of friend for over $1k for about 4 hours of work -- but he made no commitment. Plumbers, AC guys, roofers are in incredible demand in CA - need an electrician? forget it. These guys all own their own companies, dri…

Honestly after a recent home renovation, I found myself a little envious I didn't take house building as a career. It's definitely skilled labor and in high demand. It's not a "sexy" job - you'd be more likely to get a date telling someone you're a software developer than a plumber. But the low prestige of the job seems to make it worth .kre.

A few years ago one of the guys in my IT Ops team quit his job to start his own company and become a plumber. Next year he made twice the money of his peers, and worked fewer hours. Now a few years later, his house is twice the size of mine and he works about 50-60% when all is said and done. I don´t envy him working the filthy London piping, but my gosh he makes good money.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#143

Post by puppetmaster30 »

Yeah, but from career politicians POV: we want liberal arts. STEM or trade skills.... that is risky. They may want a smaller gov. So no way politics will go this way. For example, the Dirty Jobs guy? His video is banned by Google. True.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#144

Post by Jotra7 »

austenallred wrote: post #64
bitwize wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upward mobility is possible, but is much easier in a society which provides adequate social safety nets and assures greater equality overall. The USA is not such a society. The inability of the lower classes to move upward, perpetuating the cycle of poverty, is a well-recognized problem (unless you're a Republican or libertard).

> libertard I'm not a libertarian (or a Republican), but referring to groups in these types of ways (repuglican, libtard, obummer, etc.) always seems to me to indicate somebody that isn't interested in rational discussion, and is dismissive of any ideas that don't jive exactly with their current, deeply-embedded political philosophy. I'd love for you to prove me wrong.

Or it's someone who has had discussion after discussion with 'Murican "libertarians" and has realized like most people they are too stupid to have an actual rational discussion not clouded with Randian dogma. But good for you for being such a moderate. What would we do without such wisdom?

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#145

Post by dundercoder »

mediasavvy wrote: post #59
matt_wulfeck wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a pretty absurd thing to say so matter of factly. 62% of US billionaires are self made [1]. Many of us tech workers have experienced incredible upward mobility. 1. https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/269593

What percentage of self-made billionaires started out as millionaires? what percentage of poor people become self-made billionaires? What percentage of poor people who become self-made billionaires do so by going to trade school?

Anecdotally, I worked for a CEO twice who had successful exits (8 figures), was raised poor.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#146

Post by mantas »

criddell wrote: post #130
roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

> They get pressured to go to a 4 year school You're not kidding. My kids are in high school and the pressure on them to go to college is nuts. They push it so hard that it makes me wonder if there's some kind of reward for the teachers based on the number of kids that go on to college.

Very likely. In my country, schools are rated by % of kids getting into universities.

Teachers are also punished for kids who give a try at non-mandatory exams, but fail. Those who wants to get it into university damn sure work hard. Meanwhile people who don't aim for university and take those exams for the lulz are likely to damage teacher's statistics.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#147

Post by analog31 »

indubitable wrote: post #116
analog31 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view, this idea runs the danger of creating a planned economy, with characteristic boom-bust cycles and scams. The choice of which degrees to fund has to be made on either past data or some sort of current fad. The list of preferred degrees will of course create competition to get into those programs, but it may also encourage colleges to create watered-down or even fake disciplines that can absorb more student…

Measurements could be organic and self adjusting. In other words schools are required to accurately assess the average earnings, including nonearners, of each and every degree. Degrees above some rate, adjusted for location, qualify for funding - others do not. It could be on a scale rather than binary. Too many health care workers, funding for more pursuing it is completely organically reduced. Another cool feature…

There still has to be a lag. When investment is a reaction to growth, and growth is a reaction to investment, you've got practically the perfect recipe for cyclic behavior.

Also, you can't just switch on college majors by switching on funding. The pipeline for some fields is years, for instance arguably for math intensive fields, or some performing arts such as playing the bassoon.

Here are the majors you can study. I hope you got interested in math 10 years ago, or learned to play the bassoon.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#148

Post by MarkMc »

ransom1538 wrote: post #131
roseburg wrote: post #86

I would simplify it and say that learning trade skills is a better investment for most people than attending a 4-year college. Trade skills can be learned at a young age, right from home, where there is room and time to explore and enjoy the learning process. Why we wait until after high school to teach kids in-demand skills boggles my mind. All the pressure in the world arrives after high school. It's time to start…

Agreed+. This is anecdotal, but I tried recently to get roof repairs made in CA for a rental home I own. I called 20+ roofers none of whom are taking new projects. I was able to get one quote from a friend of friend for over $1k for about 4 hours of work -- but he made no commitment. Plumbers, AC guys, roofers are in incredible demand in CA - need an electrician? forget it. These guys all own their own companies, dri…

That sounds odd. Why don't roofers increase their fees until supply matches demand?

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#149

Post by mantas »

teslabox wrote: post #58

> "There are too many four-year colleges serving too many students, The Screwing of the Average Man [0] said that college used to be something the upper-class sent their children to so they'd have a leg up on the "uneducated" masses. Then the congress provided the GI Bill to subsidize college for WWII veterans. This kept disgruntled veterans occupied while the economy retooled to peacetime production. Thus began the…

> some children learn to read when they're 2, some when they're 8, and by the time they're 12 you can't tell the difference

I was sort of that late kid. I couldn't read a damn sentence by the time I got to 1st class. While probably half of the class could reading. But I learned to ready during the 1st year and never had any problems with that.

On the other hand, I did learn simple calculus yearly on my own. Didn't do virtually anything during 1st class maths. I got in trouble for that in 3rd? year when I (or my parents?) realised I was falling behind. I did catch up. But math is definitely giving me harder time than reading/writing. I wonder if that's precisely because I got lazy thanks to early start.

P.S. following card game is awesome for teaching kids calculus. No idea how it's called in English, but Google Translate should be good enough to understand the rules https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karuselė_(kortų_žaidimas)

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#150

Post by mantas »

holydude wrote: post #98
dba7dba wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Victors tried making Germany pay for causing destruction to other neighbors, after WWI. And that contributed significantly to the rise of Hitler and WW2. The Marshall Plan was created because of lesson learned from end of WWI. And yes, with the rise of Soviets, Germany was the only 'reliable' force to reply on to counter Soviets. No one after WW2 would've thought of relying on the French to counter the Soviets. Nothi…

I know. I am not that salty about this though I hate it when Germany is presented as a role model because in many things it is not and its success cannot be replicated. It is what it is.

Their apprenticeship model could be replicated though. A lot of service economy or other non-outsourcable/exportable jobs could implement it. Even IT. The old StackOverflow was somewhat like apprenticeship actually. Learning from the masters, although not working together.
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