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Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

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Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#101

Isn't Germany, one of the more booming economies of Europe, a place that promotes the trades and provides educational tracks for interested students to easily get into apprenticeship programs? And where there isn't stigma against entering such a field?

I remember reading a study about happiness of people who did or did not get far in their life in stratified (like a caste system) and non-stratified societies. The surprising (or not) result was that people find it easier to accept an unlucky birth than only having themselves to blame. (Of course it is never only themselves.) With this unexpected result, some other things start to make sense.

Caste and class systems do cause inter-class resentment, but history has shown that it is usually not enough to tear a society apart. Such resentment can even be useful to make the working class recognize that it has to stick together to get a piece of the pie (cf. social democracy). So now you have decent conditions for the working class and it's somewhat respected by everyone. Being working class is not a stigma, it is... just less prestigious.

The German school system creates a kind of stratified society - do note that it selects nominally by actual ability (in fact the parents are quite important, independent of other factors). A small problem is that the lowest stratum has become the lowest few percent and, like almost everywhere, education standards are decreasing in the now enlarged highest stratum. Electricians (my parents know one) are struggling to find good enough apprentices, and some academics have trouble finding work because there is no demand for their academic skills.

Do note that evening schools to prepare blue-collar workers for university exist.

It is all very un-American and counterintuitive, but stratified societies seem to work. Of course I recognize the downsides - inequality of chances and lost opportunities. Very likely my opinion is also rose-colored because I grew up in and benefited from a time of great upwards mobility.

AFAIU, the class system in the UK is stronger and less permeable than the German system. The French system seems more permeable but it has a special kink in that it is stratified at the highest level - you either get into one of the top three or so Paris universities or you don't. More than half of all French industry leaders come from these top universities.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#102

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

> Yet they only paid dimes to these countries

You seem to have been taught a rather selective history.

- Germany was forced to cede a quarter of its territory after WW2, to exactly the allied neighbouring countries in addition to the ones already ceded in WW1. In the east, Germans were ethnically cleansed from those areas. (The western parts were later given back to Germany because France and Netherlands found ethnic cleansing unpalatable.)

- The Soviet Occupation Zone - the later GDR - was denuded of any and all industrial machinery and other items of value, which were all carted off to the Soviet Union.

- The western allies took "intellectual reparations" and stripped German companies and individuals of their rights to IP - patents, copyrights, trademarks worth billions. (In violation of the Hague Convention which they all signed, but hey, vae victis.)

- and of course cash reparations too, for countries who did not participate in all of the above (Greece, Israel, Yugoslavia).

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#103

Germany is the country that lost the battle but won the war. I am not saying Germany is not full of hard working and smart people but consider this. Germany wreaked havoc on its neighbors effectively killing huge % of their populations,destroying trillions of $ worth of infrastructure and industries and much more. Yet they only paid dimes to these countries because someone smart people decided they must be the balanc…

> Yet they only paid dimes to these countries You seem to have been taught a rather selective history. - Germany was forced to cede a quarter of its territory after WW2, to exactly the allied neighbouring countries in addition to the ones already ceded in WW1. In the east, Germans were ethnically cleansed from those areas. (The western parts were later given back to Germany because France and Netherlands found ethnic…

Are you a german ? Because germans are usually the ones spreading lies like this.

- Germany was forced to cede a territory to the Soviet union and the SU gave it to Poland. While Poland lost bigger land in the east.

- Which happened to almost all countries under SU

- Source ?

- cash reparations ? Are you kidding me ? If you do the math it's like giving greece 10 euros while you took millions from them.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#104
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people argue past one another a lot about this because both facts can be simultaneously true: the US really is a land where a hard-working, smart, and motivated person (with a big pinch of luck) can work their way up from the top, and yet it's also a place where most people at the bottom aren't simultaneously hard-working, smart, motivated, and lucky. If they were, they would've moved up the rungs already. I…

Upward mobility is lower in US then in other western countries. The feudalism would have much lower mobility, but none of those countries have feudalism and did not had it for years.

Upward mobility is higher in Denmark, where I'm from, so that's what I'm familiar with. I don't think this metric necessarily measures exactly what people expect: The spread of possible outcomes is simply much tighter. Making $65,000/year puts you in the top 10% of earners, while the bottom 10% ends at $19,600/year. When tripling your salary is enough to travel almost the entire scale, obviously more people will do it. The same numbers for the US are $150,000 and $6,560 (not adjusted for purchasing parity or tax, so grain of salt). Or put differently, the 10%-90% income range for Denmark fits inside the 25%-75% income range for the US.

We have a lot fewer poor people in Denmark, and that's undoubtedly a very good thing. But there are also very, very few people who would be considered more than comfortably middle class in the US.

I don't know a good way to measure this, but I think that you can move further, faster upwards in absolute numbers in the US rather than in Denmark. I would expect that it's comparatively easier to for someone born around the 20%-mark to make it to 80% in the US than for someone to make it from 10% to 90% in Denmark, even though about the same journey in absolute numbers.

https://dqydj.com/united-states-income-brackets-percentiles/

http://www.statistikbanken.dk/statbank5a/SelectVarVal/Define... (Danish)

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#106
I believe that nowadays - at least in developed countries - you can have a stable income way above average as a tradesman. The shortage of reliable people in these areas is unbelieavable. As an anecdote I knew a self-employed poolboy that before crisis was earning more than most managers.

According my experience (I used to help my father during work peaks) I think that we arrived here because ALL talent is nowadays directed to academia. To complicate the situation this is not easily undone, once people get used to be intellectually challenged they see trades as a terribly boring job. And don't forget the stigma..

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#107
I reacted strongly and positively to the headline of this piece...and even more positively to the article.

Apprenticeship was once considered more important than academic degrees in many areas. The balance has gone too far towards academia, and blue collar 'workers' don't get nearly enough respect IMO

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are five electricians in town, they each make $40/hour. They have a hard time finding qualified apprentices. After education, there are 7 electricians. The same 5 electricians still make $40/hour, but the two new electricians make $25/hour. Turns out there's a previously unserved market for a cheaper and less experienced electrician.

In a theoretical sense... I guess. In a practical sense with real-life electricians, not so much. Unlike college, becoming an apprentice electrician isn't terribly costly or time consuming. People climb that mountain all the time on their own dime. The problem is that they run back down once they see the view. Electrical work is hard, stressful, and sometimes dangerous. Jam a bunch of innocent kids through trade scho…

You still have to train those "kids", trade school should not just be books, but at least 50% practical work.

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#109

I reacted strongly and positively to the headline of this piece...and even more positively to the article. Apprenticeship was once considered more important than academic degrees in many areas. The balance has gone too far towards academia, and blue collar 'workers' don't get nearly enough respect IMO

So what trade did you learn?

Re: Trade school, not 4-year college, is a better bet to solve the US income gap

#110

I believe that nowadays - at least in developed countries - you can have a stable income way above average as a tradesman. The shortage of reliable people in these areas is unbelieavable. As an anecdote I knew a self-employed poolboy that before crisis was earning more than most managers. According my experience (I used to help my father during work peaks) I think that we arrived here because ALL talent is nowadays d…

Sure, but manager works sitting in front of a computer making couple of phone calls per day sipping coffee. Poolboy scrubs dried shit off the pool tiles in hot sun.

People go to college because they dream of getting paid for sitting on their asses. Manual labour is for proles!

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