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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

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Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#151

Post by fencepost »

ThomPete wrote: post #147
telesilla wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "pinups" you mean centrefolds from mens magazines, it's not appropriate in any work environment without the permission of all involved. When I was 20 years old I simply did not have the courage or understanding that I might have asked them to take the posters down or find something less confronting.

thats the problem right there though. does the newcommer dictate the culture or adapt to it. if a place is all men and a woman comes in do they need to change their act suddenly? i dont considder that a black and white question.

If the office is all brogrammers and they hire a man who objects (for religious, moral, or simply having a little class reasons) does that person have to adapt?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#152

Post by telesilla »

ThomPete wrote: post #147
telesilla wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "pinups" you mean centrefolds from mens magazines, it's not appropriate in any work environment without the permission of all involved. When I was 20 years old I simply did not have the courage or understanding that I might have asked them to take the posters down or find something less confronting.

thats the problem right there though. does the newcommer dictate the culture or adapt to it. if a place is all men and a woman comes in do they need to change their act suddenly? i dont considder that a black and white question.

We're talking about the presence of sexualised content. It's not OK in the workplace without consent (I'm not from the U.S. so I really don't care if there is nudity around as long as it's respectful and not contributing to systemic repression). If a new person comes into a workplace and has an issue, then yes - it needs to be discussed. Let's say there are male firemen calendars everywhere - you'd have, as a man, every right to challenge the presence of objectifying material. Feminism goes both ways.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#153

Post by ThomPete »

fencepost wrote: post #151
ThomPete wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thats the problem right there though. does the newcommer dictate the culture or adapt to it. if a place is all men and a woman comes in do they need to change their act suddenly? i dont considder that a black and white question.

If the office is all brogrammers and they hire a man who objects (for religious, moral, or simply having a little class reasons) does that person have to adapt?

thats the question and i dont think there are any right answers. i would personally never change anything in my company for anyones religious belief.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#154

Post by telesilla »

flukus wrote: post #145
sp527 wrote: post #99

This has become almost cartoonish. The people being accused of sexual harassment did overtly and obviously abusive things. That doesn’t call for a referendum on the entire scope of male-female interactions. If you have to wonder whether you’re a sexual harasser and aren’t stupid or deliberately oblivious, then the answer is you are not one. You may still be somewhere on the misogyny spectrum. You may even make women…

> The people being accused of sexual harassment did overtly and obviously abusive things. They were accused of doing those things, the accusations alone were enough to be career ending, that's the problem. As long as society is fine with vilifying people on accusations alone then the only defense is to not put yourself into a situation where such an accusation can be made.

Please read the Scalzi blog post linked above:

"Aside from the actual fact that a woman accusing a man of harassment has her life turned into such a shitshow that the bar for her choosing to tell her story is almost unspeakably high (and therefore not fertile ground for lying), I want you to consider a singular and depressing fact, which is that nearly every woman you know has actual dudes who’ve harassed them. They will go after them, rather than outright lying about you."

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#155

Post by colanderman »

hasenj wrote: post #144
colanderman wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right? I'm one of the most socially awkward people I know but even I can pull off a "hey, nice new frames!", "cool T-shirt!", or "nice new haircut!" to a female co-worker without sounding like a creep. Claiming that's impossible to do "safely" – especially from someone in a managerial role, who should know how to talk to people – is just lazy CYA behavior. EDIT: Side note – one of the clearest (subconscious) dividing…

Thanks for all the tips about how to walk over eggshells without breaking them. I'll just take the path that has no eggshells on it.

I mean, if that's how you look at putting a modicum of effort into social interaction, you've got to question whether you really value relationships with co-workers of the opposite sex at all.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#156

Post by ThomPete »

telesilla wrote: post #152
ThomPete wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thats the problem right there though. does the newcommer dictate the culture or adapt to it. if a place is all men and a woman comes in do they need to change their act suddenly? i dont considder that a black and white question.

We're talking about the presence of sexualised content. It's not OK in the workplace without consent (I'm not from the U.S. so I really don't care if there is nudity around as long as it's respectful and not contributing to systemic repression). If a new person comes into a workplace and has an issue, then yes - it needs to be discussed. Let's say there are male firemen calendars everywhere - you'd have, as a man, ev…

we arent discussing the law here we are discussing ethics/morals and they arent so obious in my world. all guy place isnt jerks jsut becuase they have pinups of women. once they hire a woman it starts to be more relevant but imo depends on the context, industry etc.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#157

Post by hasenj »

colanderman wrote: post #155
hasenj wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for all the tips about how to walk over eggshells without breaking them. I'll just take the path that has no eggshells on it.

I mean, if that's how you look at putting a modicum of effort into social interaction, you've got to question whether you really value relationships with co-workers of the opposite sex at all.

I do, that's why I don't bother making any compliments. I just keep it polite and formal.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#158

Post by gizmo686 »

hasenj wrote: post #142
gizmo686 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking good", etc.), but it's different. Please explain how this is not sexist.

Please explain how it's sexist?

Sexist: relating to, involving, or fostering sexism, or attitudes and behavior toward someone based on the person's gender. [0]

The quote under discussion (bracketed comments added):

>Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking good", etc.), but it's different.

This quote admits to blatently treating his female employees differently than his male employees. That seems to be a clear example of sexism. We can disagree on what the consequences of this sexism is; and even if this is good sexism or not; but I do not see how there can be disagreement that this is sexism.

[0] http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sexist?s=t

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#159

Post by colanderman »

ThomPete wrote: post #141
colanderman wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> asking a woman if she wants to come over to your house tonight to taste whiskey with you Does she like whiskey? Have you talked about this before? If a co-worker invited me (who never talks about alcohol) to his house to come "taste whiskey" I'd be confused and try to figure out the pretext. Were I a woman, the obvious pretext is "sexual advance". > group ski trip with a reservation for only one hotel room That's w…

were do you work? i have gone on ski trips, summer trips, saunas and strip clubs with my male and female colleagues. nothing weird about the examples mentioned

Inviting co-workers with whom you are not already on very good terms to a sauna or strip club is very weird and anti-social.

(Why? Because you force those who would be uncomfortable attending to either self-exclude from the work social group, or give in to peer pressure. Or you don't invite them in the first place, which ensures they feel excluded.)

And if you are on very good terms with them, well, they're not going to complain to HR because they're your friends.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#160

Post by bnjms »

telesilla wrote: post #54

20 years ago I walked into a server room where the walls sported naked/semi-naked women and the inhabiting men looked at me like I was there to take away their wall candy. I chose to leave and made another career for myself, because I was too young and afraid to stand my ground. I don't regret this, because I went on to have an amazing life, but I never again stepped foot in a room like that and I do regret never wor…

Hey, your comment and link are really good. Those tweets were good too. Best commentary I've seen on this subject by a lot.
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