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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

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Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#141

Post by ThomPete »

colanderman wrote: post #122
sliverstorm wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mostly involving extracurricular activity and people you know somewhat rather than total strangers. asking a woman if she wants to come over to your house tonight to taste whiskey with you and another male coworker, just not quite the same. invite on a group ski trip with a reservation for only one hotel room. join me for dinner to talk about project/feature. a packed car trip to somewhere in a very small vehicle. le…

> asking a woman if she wants to come over to your house tonight to taste whiskey with you Does she like whiskey? Have you talked about this before? If a co-worker invited me (who never talks about alcohol) to his house to come "taste whiskey" I'd be confused and try to figure out the pretext. Were I a woman, the obvious pretext is "sexual advance". > group ski trip with a reservation for only one hotel room That's w…

were do you work? i have gone on ski trips, summer trips, saunas and strip clubs with my male and female colleagues. nothing weird about the examples mentioned

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#142

Post by hasenj »

gizmo686 wrote: post #139
hasenj wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes you do. Your comment to which I am replying advocates for sexism. No matter what you say or do, someone will find a way to call it sexist.

>Incidentally I regularly break some of these rules with male employees, such as remarking on haircuts ("looking good", etc.), but it's different. Please explain how this is not sexist.

Please explain how it's sexist?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#143

Post by telesilla »

ThomPete wrote: post #140
fencepost wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago walking out was the right choice - not necessarily because of the blatant sexism but because of the massive glaringly obvious and uncorrected mismanagement in that particular environment. The problem was not just that there were a bunch of jerks with pinups on the walls, it's that any competent management in the late 90s should have eliminated that within the first 5 minutes of walking into that room.

so now you are a jerk if you have pinups on the wall?

If by "pinups" you mean centrefolds from mens magazines, it's not appropriate in any work environment without the permission of all involved. When I was 20 years old I simply did not have the courage or understanding that I might have asked them to take the posters down or find something less confronting.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#144

Post by hasenj »

colanderman wrote: post #89
debacle wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just treat people nice. There's a way to compliment a woman's dress or hair without sounding like a creep. In fact, women who are friends do it all the time. It's part of how women form platonic relationships. One of the nicest compliments you can pay someone is noticing a conscious change that they've made in themselves!

Right? I'm one of the most socially awkward people I know but even I can pull off a "hey, nice new frames!", "cool T-shirt!", or "nice new haircut!" to a female co-worker without sounding like a creep. Claiming that's impossible to do "safely" – especially from someone in a managerial role, who should know how to talk to people – is just lazy CYA behavior. EDIT: Side note – one of the clearest (subconscious) dividing…

Thanks for all the tips about how to walk over eggshells without breaking them. I'll just take the path that has no eggshells on it.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#145

Post by flukus »

sp527 wrote: post #99

This has become almost cartoonish. The people being accused of sexual harassment did overtly and obviously abusive things. That doesn’t call for a referendum on the entire scope of male-female interactions. If you have to wonder whether you’re a sexual harasser and aren’t stupid or deliberately oblivious, then the answer is you are not one. You may still be somewhere on the misogyny spectrum. You may even make women…

> The people being accused of sexual harassment did overtly and obviously abusive things.

They were accused of doing those things, the accusations alone were enough to be career ending, that's the problem. As long as society is fine with vilifying people on accusations alone then the only defense is to not put yourself into a situation where such an accusation can be made.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#146

Post by [deleted] »

ThomPete wrote: post #140
fencepost wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago walking out was the right choice - not necessarily because of the blatant sexism but because of the massive glaringly obvious and uncorrected mismanagement in that particular environment. The problem was not just that there were a bunch of jerks with pinups on the walls, it's that any competent management in the late 90s should have eliminated that within the first 5 minutes of walking into that room.

so now you are a jerk if you have pinups on the wall?

[deleted]

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#147

Post by ThomPete »

telesilla wrote: post #143
ThomPete wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so now you are a jerk if you have pinups on the wall?

If by "pinups" you mean centrefolds from mens magazines, it's not appropriate in any work environment without the permission of all involved. When I was 20 years old I simply did not have the courage or understanding that I might have asked them to take the posters down or find something less confronting.

thats the problem right there though. does the newcommer dictate the culture or adapt to it. if a place is all men and a woman comes in do they need to change their act suddenly? i dont considder that a black and white question.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#148

Post by dwaltrip »

ThomPete wrote: post #147
telesilla wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by "pinups" you mean centrefolds from mens magazines, it's not appropriate in any work environment without the permission of all involved. When I was 20 years old I simply did not have the courage or understanding that I might have asked them to take the posters down or find something less confronting.

thats the problem right there though. does the newcommer dictate the culture or adapt to it. if a place is all men and a woman comes in do they need to change their act suddenly? i dont considder that a black and white question.

If the company expects to hire any women in the coming years, then it is inappropriate to have pinups on the wall.

Such things probably wouldn't help with investors or potential acquisitions either.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#149

Post by fencepost »

ThomPete wrote: post #140
fencepost wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20 years ago walking out was the right choice - not necessarily because of the blatant sexism but because of the massive glaringly obvious and uncorrected mismanagement in that particular environment. The problem was not just that there were a bunch of jerks with pinups on the walls, it's that any competent management in the late 90s should have eliminated that within the first 5 minutes of walking into that room.

so now you are a jerk if you have pinups on the wall?

Would you feel comfortable if you walked into an office and the walls were covered with semi-tumescent centerfolds from Playgirl (is that still a thing?) or the like?

Heck, maybe the women in the office have a gay erotica reading group that gets together at lunchtime. How would you feel if it was pictures of gay male couples "in flagrante" and more than semi-tumescent?

Might that make you uncomfortable?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#150

Post by ThomPete »

fencepost wrote: post #149
ThomPete wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so now you are a jerk if you have pinups on the wall?

Would you feel comfortable if you walked into an office and the walls were covered with semi-tumescent centerfolds from Playgirl (is that still a thing?) or the like? Heck, maybe the women in the office have a gay erotica reading group that gets together at lunchtime. How would you feel if it was pictures of gay male couples "in flagrante" and more than semi-tumescent? Might that make you uncomfortable?

not at all. i dont care about such things.
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