Earlier quoted context omitted.
why is it difficult to treat women the same as men?
as has been said many times by now in this thread- there are many things a man can say to another man that he can't say to a woman, and things he can't do. or even if there is something he can say, he might not be totally confident he can say it. who among us has never said something that came out wrong? "so just never say or do any of those things ever" is a poor solution.
Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
81–90 of 178 posts
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#82I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…
I don't subscribe to this androgynous approach to company culture and I don't see why anyone would willingly want to work in such an environment.
You can both be professional and have a fun environment to work in. A place where both men and women want to come and work without having to resort to a complete sterilize the workplace.
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you saying "hysteria" ironically? But seriously, things are getting hugely chaotic. The only safe bet is keeping sexuality totally out of the workplace. But that doesn't mean isolation. As you say, you treat everyone the same. Because you really have no clue about their sexual orientation or status, issues, vulnerability, and so on.
Why wouldn't you treat everyone the same?
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
What double standard? If a female co-worker did that to me I'd bring it up with HR. And – I'm making the assumption that you are probably in tech and therefore probably in a male-dominated workplace – unlike a woman in your situation, you can almost certainly call out the individual in question with zero fear of consequences to your career. Without knowing specifics, my prejudice is that you are in no position to com…
The double standard is that she still has her job but a man wouldn’t.
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#85This situation is completely blown out of proportion and ridiculous. When you have members of the opposite sex sharing space every day, sex is a factor, and there really needs to be some amount of reality brought back into this discussion. The prevailing attitude reminds me of religious parents acting as if their teenage children are not going to have sexual relations, and refusing to educate them on sex as a result.…
But the behavior you describe, I would not consider acceptable. I personally would not want to work somewhere that was considered “ok” and would probably at this point mention it to the person involved, HR or their manager.
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a pretty disingenuous framing. "Be human", really? The point is that you can't actually literally treat people equally because there are plenty of things that are acceptable to say or do with another man but not with a woman.
what are some of the things, in your opinion, that are acceptable to say to a man you do not know, that are not acceptable to say to a women you do not know?
For example, if I will invite a male co-worker out to lunch without a second thought, but I would not do so with a female co-worker unless someone else was coming along. This very clearly hurts my female co-workers, but I care more about covering my own ass then gender equality.
I also would not think twice about asking a male co-worker about his personal life, but am much more cautious when doing so with a female co-worker.
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#87Even in the more innocuous cases, it leads to a ton of self-doubt. Part of the problem is the volume of it - these aren't one-off instances, but repeated questioning of one's worth as a human being and member of the team.
I like unconscious bias as a model for addressing this because it lets you flip the equation around on these cases. Imagine someone who tells women at work to smile. By accusing them of being sexist, the argument becomes about whether they're being sexist - and they'll inevitably argue that they're not, they're just being nice, people are being too sensitive/PC and in the end nothing happens. And it's really not the individual instance of it that's the problem, but the volume of it - and not just from that person, but from everyone. And this really serves to diffuse responsibility.
Unconscious bias would say to recognize your own biases, and rather than have the argument about whether or not you're sexist/racist/whatever, to think about how you can treat people equally, and correct for your biases. And then, rather than trying to apply labels to people, we can have a real conversation about behavior - and correct ones behavior and build systems to accommodate for these biases.
For example, if someone repeatedly interrupts someone in a meeting, they might not even know it (hence, _unconscious_ bias). If you accuse that person of being sexist, the conversation stops there. But if people subscribe to unconscious bias, it can be a learning experience "hey, I noticed you interrupted X a few times in that meeting" it can be a chance to understand ones biases - "oh, I didn't mean to. I'll be mindful of that in the future." And you can even go a step further, and create systems to compensate - have a rule that one person can talk at a time (say by holding a ball), or a culture where you explicitly acknowledge any ideas you're building on before you suggest something.
Obviously there's no silver bullet to solving this, and there are bigger issues than people being interrupted in meetings, but I've found when people subscribe to this philosophy of self-reflection and mindfulness, it goes a long way in creating a positive environment where people are treated like people.
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#88I don't think it is helpful to pretend there is no gray area. Talking about how to avoid grey areas is good. Pretending they don't exist is potentially dangerous and strikes me as toxic and blamey.
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
Damned no matter what you do?
Just treat people nice. There's a way to compliment a woman's dress or hair without sounding like a creep. In fact, women who are friends do it all the time. It's part of how women form platonic relationships. One of the nicest compliments you can pay someone is noticing a conscious change that they've made in themselves!
EDIT: Side note – one of the clearest (subconscious) dividing lines between "creepy" and "normal" compliments is – how much time am I spending enjoying the thing I'm complimenting? If either your comment implies "I (may) have spent time staring at you to come to this conclusion", or if your focus (eyes/body position) lingers on the person you're complimenting, it will be perceived as creepy. If neither of these is true, it won't.
Examples:
"Nice new frames!" -- noncreepy. Not specific enough to have required more than a second's glance to formulate. Speaker may not even have actually formed an opinion.
"Those pants fit you well." -- creepy. You must have been looking at my butt and thighs for at least several seconds to come to this conclusion. Better: "That's such a cheery yellow blouse!" You could see and judge the color across the office in a second's time.
"I like your haircut", followed by several seconds of silence while you continue to look at me or my haircut -- creepy. You are enjoying this aspect of my body too much. Better: "I like your haircut", followed by topic change or end of conversation.
"You look good today / I like how you look" -- creepy. It's so nonspecific that I don't know what's going through your mind. Better: "I like the new look" (if the "new look" is something obvious), or be otherwise specific.
Note that all the above applies equally across or within genders. I (male) would indeed be creeped out if a male co-worker said one of the "creepy" examples above (with the possible exception of "you look good today", only because I might have more insight into what's in his head, assuming he is heterosexual). And I cannot think of one time a male co-worker has done so.
Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am saying that there is a context to these kind of social dynamics which can't just be considered binary. It depends on the situation. All that get's lost in the panic.
Catcalling just seems like a bad example... I can't think of a situation where that seems appropriate? I'm really not seeing why any of this belongs in the workplace. Why not bars, or if you're not the nightlife type, dating sites?