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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

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Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#51

Post by debacle »

T2_t2 wrote: post #36
debacle wrote: post #14

I've overstepped with women. Women have overstepped with me. There is definitely a graciously wide gray area of "That came out differently than I meant it." The key is to: 1. Understand your own intent when saying/doing something. 2. Consider the potential negative ways something you may say could be perceived. 3. Understand the additional social responsibility that comes with being someone's superior, explicit or im…

4. Hope no one takes further something that is a misunderstanding? I dunno where we are going here, and I'm not sure all this stuff isn't confirming the exact opposite of everything people are hoping for. I'm not sure why the next Harvey Weinstein won't act the exact same way ("You mean, I get to sleep with beautiful women for 30 years and then get outed worth 100s of millions? That's seems like a great deal") I don'…

I had an edit where I added:

4. Treat people like individuals.

But I didn't want to needlessly extend the list, even though that's the most important advice you could give anyone about interacting with anyone else.

Most people who commit sexual harassment aren't Harvey Weinstein. Most flirting is innocent, and in my experience either slightly awkward, ignored, or well received, but rarely uncomfortable. Most male/female relationships (or any relationships for that matter) in the workplace are healthy, friendly, and beneficial.

There is a vast difference between inappropriate social interaction due to ignorance, and predatory social interaction due to malice.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#52

Post by brians »

ThomPete wrote: post #15
rhelmer wrote: post #8

I'm not sure why this is hard... why is any amount of flirting, or innuendo etc. at work OK? I do realize that people spend much of their time at work, and it's a place people meet. Personally, now that we have dating sites and such I would not risk my career by trying to initiate a relationship with someone I am working with... I'd rather avoid even just the mild awkwardness of someone being uncomfortable at me aski…

It's not that simple. This isn't just some trend which can be fixed with a little logic. This is something that is changing the discussion fundamentally turning men guilty by default. The metoo campaign IM basically allowed anything from actual abuse to catcalling be called sexual abuse. It expanded the definition of sexual abuse to basically align with only the most extreme feminists. Men are now by definition guilt…

Wait a minute. Actual abuse and catcalling are both abuse. The metoo campaign had flaws—I think it badly hurt some men who’d been sexually abused or harassed—but the line of what’s appropriate didn’t seem to move there.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#53

Post by colanderman »

erikbye wrote: post #45
colanderman wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What double standard? If a female co-worker did that to me I'd bring it up with HR. And – I'm making the assumption that you are probably in tech and therefore probably in a male-dominated workplace – unlike a woman in your situation, you can almost certainly call out the individual in question with zero fear of consequences to your career. Without knowing specifics, my prejudice is that you are in no position to com…

The double standard is that she still has her job but a man wouldn’t.

Bullshit. Tens of thousands of men who sexually harass women get away scot-free day in day out.

The men you mention lost their jobs because the women they harassed spoke out (and almost always, they did so under fear of reprisal). It didn't just "happen". Have you spoken to HR or your boss?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#54

Post by telesilla »

20 years ago I walked into a server room where the walls sported naked/semi-naked women and the inhabiting men looked at me like I was there to take away their wall candy. I chose to leave and made another career for myself, because I was too young and afraid to stand my ground. I don't regret this, because I went on to have an amazing life, but I never again stepped foot in a room like that and I do regret never working with a massive Oracle installation or learning how to get the most out of a PERL app running on metal. I lost out, and I hate that I never had the opportunity to experience working at corporate scale.

I am willing to bet those rooms still exist, but almost all of the rest of my career I've found men welcoming and courteous, the same as the women I now work with. Things have changed and they are changing for the better - this is all just part of the discussion we gotta have.

It's getting better folks - the fact that women can now speak out in public means we are less scared, and we'll be able to interact more and you'll have a lot more women as company down the road.

Here's an exacting analysis by the ever-helpful Dan Savage on the Louis CK incident which covers similar ground (work-related harassment and power relations):

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/11/10/25557816/savage-l...

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#55

Post by tree_of_item »

_m8fo wrote: post #5

I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about? Is it that difficult to just treat women -- not nicely -- but equally? This is kindergarten level stuff, people. Keep your hands to yourself, be nice, don't ask overly personal questions about people unless they share first, etc. I guarantee anyone reading this that if they just reflect behavior they'll be fine. This means if someone shares something moderately person…

This is a pretty disingenuous framing. "Be human", really?

The point is that you can't actually literally treat people equally because there are plenty of things that are acceptable to say or do with another man but not with a woman.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#56

Post by brians »

rhelmer wrote: post #8

I'm not sure why this is hard... why is any amount of flirting, or innuendo etc. at work OK? I do realize that people spend much of their time at work, and it's a place people meet. Personally, now that we have dating sites and such I would not risk my career by trying to initiate a relationship with someone I am working with... I'd rather avoid even just the mild awkwardness of someone being uncomfortable at me aski…

Absolutely. But in some places I've worked, friendships built at work split heavily, though not exclusively, along gender lines. Men can reach out to befriend other men, and women women, but across that line has too much risk of being misunderstood.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#58

Post by debacle »

hasenj wrote: post #49
debacle wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. > - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. > If you have to overcompensate like Pence News flash, you're overcompensating as well.

Damned no matter what you do?

Just treat people nice. There's a way to compliment a woman's dress or hair without sounding like a creep. In fact, women who are friends do it all the time. It's part of how women form platonic relationships. One of the nicest compliments you can pay someone is noticing a conscious change that they've made in themselves!

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#59

Post by throwawayn0w4y »

This situation is completely blown out of proportion and ridiculous.

When you have members of the opposite sex sharing space every day, sex is a factor, and there really needs to be some amount of reality brought back into this discussion.

The prevailing attitude reminds me of religious parents acting as if their teenage children are not going to have sexual relations, and refusing to educate them on sex as a result.

The majority of jobs I've had exposed me to sexual harassment and assault in various forms.

I've had female office managers hanging their arm around me and petting my hand while I try to eat lunch after weeks of my ignoring their verbal advances.

I've had female sales women grinding their breasts against me while rinding to a company offsite team-builder in a shuttle bus.

As far as I'm concerned this is par for the course when you stick women and men in the same space. I don't feel like these women crossed a line worth making a big deal about, it's not as if I was raped. They were mildly annoying, but we're adults, and I'm not deluding myself into believing we're going to be robots in a coed office without ever letting our sex enter the picture.

In all my experiences, the women gave up pretty quickly. It's as if they were just going out of their way to make it blatantly obvious they were interested, because my acting aloof and ignoring their more subtle advances weren't convincing enough. They probably assumed I was being shy (quiet, introverted, software engineer).

I personally feel people need to calm down a bit on this topic, and yes I'd like to see the double standard go away. Attraction happens, if people are civil about it and not too persistent, I'd rather there be a reasonable threshold of tolerance on both sides of this.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#60

Post by comstock »

erikbye wrote: post #29

A woman at work constantly speaks in tones of sexual innuendo, when she comes over to someone asking for help or whatever, she leans over you and places her hand on your shoulder or thigh. As a man in today’s climate the double standard is painfully obvious. Follow her example and you’d be on your ass fast.

Yes, it happens. In my view what your describing is also unacceptable behavior. In the past I would have overlooked it, at this point I wouldn’t accept it and I’d ask her to stop and mention it to her manager/ my manager (or HR).

I have no doubt that women suffer from harassment more in the workplace. But this behavior is also not ok.

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