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How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

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Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#61

Post by aaronbrethorst »

swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

> Stuff like this isn't useful to people who are incapable of programming and is just a highly coupled mess that can't be easily automated and version controlled.

You might be right, but they're still making over $1mm/year in revenue.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#62

Post by murukesh_s »

waytogo wrote: post #57
swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

This and I would go one step further: visual programming tools are like GUIs and they are the main reason that people can't code nowadays. When I switched back to a shell after 20 years I realized how much a GUI hurts, how much I unlearned to work with computers. After decades of Windows and OSX, I got Arch with i3 (so no desktop environment). I am mainly using text-based software like the shell, bash, tmux and vim e…

Coding with text is easy, but then why we there is a gap between getting a prototype/design done and the actual implementation? Text based coding is certainly more efficient in representing logic in a concise way, but the current set of frameworks and tooling on text based environments requires an exhorbitant amount of learning to produce a working application(e.g React), that's where the rapid application development tools like bubble comes in. In my opinion a combination of text and GUI should work together to provide the best possible efficiency for developers and other members of a team..

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#63

Post by flukus »

waytogo wrote: post #57
swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

This and I would go one step further: visual programming tools are like GUIs and they are the main reason that people can't code nowadays. When I switched back to a shell after 20 years I realized how much a GUI hurts, how much I unlearned to work with computers. After decades of Windows and OSX, I got Arch with i3 (so no desktop environment). I am mainly using text-based software like the shell, bash, tmux and vim e…

I'd go a step further again and say that GUI's are why people have no idea how to use computers anymore. A file is a concept the average user is becoming less familiar with, directories of files have almost disappeared entirely for them. The idea that you could manipulate an image in a paint program and have it updated in your word document is black magic, so tools like word and excel have to do everything they need.

A story I've told before is my mum and the software that comes with her digital camera. This software is everything to her, if she want to back up the pictures she uses this software, if she want to print them she uses this software, she has no idea that the individual photos are just files on a disk. So what happens when she get's a new camera from a different manufacturer? Her knowledge is back to square one and she has to relearn all over again, this is what infantalising users has lead to.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#64

Post by waytogo »

murukesh_s wrote: post #62
waytogo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and I would go one step further: visual programming tools are like GUIs and they are the main reason that people can't code nowadays. When I switched back to a shell after 20 years I realized how much a GUI hurts, how much I unlearned to work with computers. After decades of Windows and OSX, I got Arch with i3 (so no desktop environment). I am mainly using text-based software like the shell, bash, tmux and vim e…

Coding with text is easy, but then why we there is a gap between getting a prototype/design done and the actual implementation? Text based coding is certainly more efficient in representing logic in a concise way, but the current set of frameworks and tooling on text based environments requires an exhorbitant amount of learning to produce a working application(e.g React), that's where the rapid application developmen…

> why we there is a gap between getting a prototype/design done and the actual implementation?

I think this has rather psychological reasons. There is a good book from Seth Godin called 'The Dip' which deals with the problem why most are fast in prototyping but not able to transform a prototype to an actual implementation ('to stick to the end'). However, I think there is nothing wrong with a prototype to fully-implement rate of 100 to 1. Prototyping is how people learn as well.

Moreover, I am not saying that GUIs are per se bad. If I create vector-based graphics I need a GUI, when I browse the web I prefer HTML/CSS and a GUI's smooth scrolling over a text-based Lynx. Some programming languages like Java are better with GUI-IDEs but my main point was another one: That too much GUI in your daily life creates an unnecessary intimidation towards programming (if you are not a programmer yet).

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#65

Post by Postscapes »

I found this product awhile back and was so excited at first.

I have a design background ( but can dabble in css, hack at php and python) but had trouble trying to get some APIs connected and displayed with Bubble.

Please oh please, can one of you developers have Airtable and Webflow make a baby? This combo would be amazing for functional business use and data display and I would pay good money for it.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#66

Post by tluyben2 »

acangiano wrote: post #3

For a similar idea, but more aimed at programmers, there is Anvil: https://anvil.works

I tried them both and (probably obviously as a programmer) find Anvil faster to work with. Some things are really fast in the visual environment, but when you are stuck, getting code out is really convenient. I do like both approaches.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#67

Post by cwyers »

semperdark wrote: post #31
swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

I agree. Typing is not the hard part of programming.

Typing wasn't the hard part of using shells, either, and yet GUIs have displaced them for many classes of users. One of the very hard parts is "knowing what things you can type." GUIs solved that problem for UI much better than shells did -- it was much easier to discover what the computer could do in an early GUI. A good visual programming language (not that I've seen one yet) could bring similar discoverability to programming.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#68

Post by bitwize »

murukesh_s wrote: post #62
waytogo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and I would go one step further: visual programming tools are like GUIs and they are the main reason that people can't code nowadays. When I switched back to a shell after 20 years I realized how much a GUI hurts, how much I unlearned to work with computers. After decades of Windows and OSX, I got Arch with i3 (so no desktop environment). I am mainly using text-based software like the shell, bash, tmux and vim e…

Coding with text is easy, but then why we there is a gap between getting a prototype/design done and the actual implementation? Text based coding is certainly more efficient in representing logic in a concise way, but the current set of frameworks and tooling on text based environments requires an exhorbitant amount of learning to produce a working application(e.g React), that's where the rapid application developmen…

> Coding with text is easy, but then why we there is a gap between getting a prototype/design done and the actual implementation?

The solution for this is simple, really: simply declare the prototype the working implementation, and put devs on the hook for maintaining it.

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#69

Post by erikbye »

waytogo wrote: post #57
swiley wrote: post #28

I've seen plenty of visual programming tools and lots of other things to help "non programmers." I've even helped build one. The fact is that if you can think and communicate precisely enough to describe your ideas then you can enter them into a computer fairly easily in a language like python or basic. If you can't then no matter how fancy your tools are you still need something intelligent (currently a human progra…

This and I would go one step further: visual programming tools are like GUIs and they are the main reason that people can't code nowadays. When I switched back to a shell after 20 years I realized how much a GUI hurts, how much I unlearned to work with computers. After decades of Windows and OSX, I got Arch with i3 (so no desktop environment). I am mainly using text-based software like the shell, bash, tmux and vim e…

GUI or no GUI, apparently, people can either program or not, and it's been this way since the '60s, at least.

https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-f...

Re: How Bubble bootstrapped a visual programming tool for non-coders to $100k/mo

#70

Post by erikbye »

andr3w321 wrote: post #30

What I'd really like is a smarter compiler. My normal dev process is 1. Write code 2. Run code 3. See error 4. Google error 5. Write code to fix error 6. Repeat I'd like a compiler that helps speed up steps 3-5. I know IDEs do some of this, but I'd like a compiler that automatically fixes errors instead of just telling me what went wrong. One that fixes parentheses that I left off or automatically fixes typos in vari…

Which language are you using? IDE or no IDE, it's been a long time since I've used a language that doesn't get statically analyzed or linted while I type. E.g. Clang statically analyzes on the fly in Emacs. I certainly don't need to Google any errors as the error messages are helpful.

Some of the other stuff you mention is not a way long off if you use an IDE like Visual Studio, which, with or without Resharper does a lot of code analysis. You get notified if you have dead code (branches that never get ran), duplicate code (i.e., things that should be turned into a common method or class), etc.

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