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Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

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Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#61

Post by jonnathanson »

pishpash wrote: post #36
jonnathanson wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hypothetical problem... Let's imagine a universe in which milk is a rare commodity, and milkshakes are worth their weight in gold. In this world, right now in 2017, 1 milkshake trades for $100 USD. You have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake. So we each hold the equivalent of $100. I drink your milkshake, effectively stealing $100 from you. Fast forward to the year 2020. Milkshakes are now worth $1,000,000 USD. Have…

Sure, but the appropriate amount, in my mind would have been $100 plus prevailing interest, not some in-kind distribution. Suppose there is only one milkshake in the world and it got destroyed, how would you ever repay the claim except by converting to currency value?

So essentially we set damages at t0 currency value of the milkshake, plus interest over N years. Seems reasonable.

If milkshakes were illiquid, and could only be bought and sold every N years, that would seem to peg damages to asset value instead of currency value. Or am I wrong?

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#62

Post by s73ver_ »

jonnathanson wrote: post #57
Shaanie wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stole $100 from me. If the value of milkshakes went down to 0 in 2020, would you say you deprived me of nothing? This is basically like the people talking about the guy who spent thousands of bitcoins on pizza as if he lost shitloads of money by buying that pizza. Of course he didn't.

In the scenario I've presented, I think you're correct. This is because milkshakes are liquid (both literally and figuratively), and because they are replaceable. If we add the condition that milkshakes are not replaceable, does that change the outcome? I'll stfu now if this is derailing things.

It does not. Again, suppose BTC had gone to $2. Would you then say that they only stole $2?

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#63

Post by NotHereNotThere »

Shouldn't they release the method they used to determine which reimbursement currency "won"? From what I understand, creditors were asked in a form which currency they prefer (yen or bitcoin).

People in the comments say the requested a Bitcoin reimbursement, but is it even possible for them to know what choice others made?

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#64

Post by s73ver_ »

pc2g4d wrote: post #56

This seems like an unjust outcome. Shouldn't there be enough latitude for bankruptcy judges that they can respond to unusual situations such as the value of the assets rising to the point that everybody is earning money on the bankruptcy? Should Karpeles really be made a near-billionaire because he presided over the theft of hundreds of millions of dollars of other people's money?

At the same time, what if the value of BTC plummeted to $1?

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#65

Post by jonnathanson »

s73ver_ wrote: post #62
jonnathanson wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the scenario I've presented, I think you're correct. This is because milkshakes are liquid (both literally and figuratively), and because they are replaceable. If we add the condition that milkshakes are not replaceable, does that change the outcome? I'll stfu now if this is derailing things.

It does not. Again, suppose BTC had gone to $2. Would you then say that they only stole $2?

I think you're right, but I do like pishpash's solution of converting to currency value at the time of theft and then applying some sort of interest calculation. This divorces the damages of the theft from the hypothetical asset value of milkshakes over time.

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#66

Post by bdcravens »

tzakrajs wrote: post #52
hellbanner wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could find the link, and Googling is cluttered: [0] There was an IMF (or World bank?) paper from the 70s, a .txt was online somewhere It described "a possible future of digital currency" .. and described Bitcoin with a lot of accuracy. [1] An analysis theorizing Bitcoin was first mined on networked computers running the same hardware config - something about how the randomness repeated and the rate of new ha…

This is the most dangerous thing about the IMF stating that blockchain was the future of finance... they forgot that everyone immediately assumes Bitcoin when you say blockchain. They were specifically not referencing Bitcoin by name for a reason. "She pointed to distributed ledger technology like blockchain that can help make the banking system more inclusive." https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/13/bitcoin-get-serious-abo…

I don't think the 2 of you are talking about the same thing. Parent was talking about a more generalized paper from the 70s, not a statement from a current IMF head.

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#67

Post by hellbanner »

bdcravens wrote: post #66
tzakrajs wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most dangerous thing about the IMF stating that blockchain was the future of finance... they forgot that everyone immediately assumes Bitcoin when you say blockchain. They were specifically not referencing Bitcoin by name for a reason. "She pointed to distributed ledger technology like blockchain that can help make the banking system more inclusive." https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/13/bitcoin-get-serious-abo…

I don't think the 2 of you are talking about the same thing. Parent was talking about a more generalized paper from the 70s, not a statement from a current IMF head.

Yes, the paper I was referring to didn't say "blockchain". It was a theory on how digital money could work, with features like transacting across national boundaries

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#68

Post by LyndsySimon »

bitmapbrother wrote: post #60
LyndsySimon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's evidence that it's happened a couple of times, at least, in Bitcoin's history.

Did they use an IBM Model M or Model F as the weapon?

I think it depends on whether the attacker was more skilled at 1HB or 1HS. The Model F is 1HS, obviously, because F#.

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#69

Post by unknown_apostle »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #37
unknown_apostle wrote: post #22

Here's what I don't understand: I specifically requested to be repaid in BTC at the time, you could state this on the claims form. I even opened an account on Kraken for this? So why would I not get the full amount in bitcoin?

Because the law does not work that way. Japan values property in yen, and the law states that you must be paid back the value of what you lost at the time you lost it. This is true in most countries -- in the United States, if the state for any reason seizes your coins without legal reason, and has time to auction them off before you can prove they had no legal reason to take them, you will be paid back in dollar for…

Mtgox owes me bitcoins. My claim on mtgox was fully validated. They have recovered like 80% of those bitcoins. I explicitly requested in the Japanese legal paperwork to be paid back in bitcoins.

So, now, please give me back my fucking bitcoins.

Instead, an incompetent piece of shit, the guy who caused this mess will now supposedly walk away with the majority of those bitcoins.

It's not just and it won't happen. We'll sue him to the end of the universe and back until he pays up. There are other forms of litigation besides Japanese bankruptcy law. And there is funding too. The entire sum I will supposedly get back now, plus a huge bitcoin-denominated bonus will be fully committed to this purpose.

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#70

Post by unknown_apostle »

charlesdm wrote: post #35
unknown_apostle wrote: post #22

Here's what I don't understand: I specifically requested to be repaid in BTC at the time, you could state this on the claims form. I even opened an account on Kraken for this? So why would I not get the full amount in bitcoin?

I'm assuming because the lawyers managing the bankruptcy process tried recovering a certain amount of money in Yen, with the books being handled in Yen. Normal people deal with currency, not Bitcoin. Especially in 2013. In bankruptcy proceedings, most assets are sold off and the remaining cash is distributed to shareholders and the likes. You're being paid out your Yen amount (just like any other person who had a cla…

It's not just and it won't happen. I requested my bitcoins back in the paperwork. If I understand correctly, they're holding 80% of those bitcoins. Give them back.
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