Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

cryptocoinsnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 72 posts

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#31

Post by bm1362 »

oaijdsfoaijsf wrote: post #28
gct wrote: post #21

That's cool, I didn't need the $50,000 in bitcoin he fucked me out of anyways.

TBF when he fucked you out of it it was only worth $700 or so (based on another commenter's claim that it increased 70-fold in the intervening time). Most similarly situated people could have re-upped that amount of bitcoin back then, but if you chose not to, it's not like Karpeles forced that choice on you. IMO, being mad about the $50k current value of bitcoin that you lost is overstating the harm he did you signif…

I understand this point as well, but imagine you got into earlier and tied up your existing capital in that $700. You wouldn't have been able to capture the next 70x.

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#32

Post by oaijdsfoaijsf »

bm1362 wrote: post #31
oaijdsfoaijsf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBF when he fucked you out of it it was only worth $700 or so (based on another commenter's claim that it increased 70-fold in the intervening time). Most similarly situated people could have re-upped that amount of bitcoin back then, but if you chose not to, it's not like Karpeles forced that choice on you. IMO, being mad about the $50k current value of bitcoin that you lost is overstating the harm he did you signif…

I understand this point as well, but imagine you got into earlier and tied up your existing capital in that $700. You wouldn't have been able to capture the next 70x.

If someone had only $700 of capital and could not rebalance their investment mix, I feel for them. But I really doubt that's most people.

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#33

Post by jonnathanson »

oaijdsfoaijsf wrote: post #28
gct wrote: post #21

That's cool, I didn't need the $50,000 in bitcoin he fucked me out of anyways.

TBF when he fucked you out of it it was only worth $700 or so (based on another commenter's claim that it increased 70-fold in the intervening time). Most similarly situated people could have re-upped that amount of bitcoin back then, but if you chose not to, it's not like Karpeles forced that choice on you. IMO, being mad about the $50k current value of bitcoin that you lost is overstating the harm he did you signif…

Hypothetical problem... Let's imagine a universe in which milk is a rare commodity, and milkshakes are worth their weight in gold. In this world, right now in 2017, 1 milkshake trades for $100 USD. You have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake. So we each hold the equivalent of $100. I drink your milkshake, effectively stealing $100 from you.

Fast forward to the year 2020. Milkshakes are now worth $1,000,000 USD. Have I deprived you of $100, or have I deprived you of $1,000,000? (Note that we can't seem to use retroactive NPV analysis in 2017, since in 2017 we had no way of accurately predicting how milkshakes would be priced in 2020.)

On the one hand, I appear to have imposed a severe opportunity cost on you. On the other hand, I haven't taken the world's only milkshake from you. So what I've literally stolen from you in 2017 is the present value of the milkshake, $100.

IANAL, and I will confess that I have no idea how a court of law would evaluate this case. But in economic terms, it certainly feels as though I've deprived you of more than $100. So what have I actually taken from you?

[EDIT: This post was meant to pose a question. It was not meant as a frank disagreement with the parent post per se. I've cleaned up the wording a bit to try to make it clearer.]

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#34

Post by pishpash »

oaijdsfoaijsf wrote: post #28
gct wrote: post #21

That's cool, I didn't need the $50,000 in bitcoin he fucked me out of anyways.

TBF when he fucked you out of it it was only worth $700 or so (based on another commenter's claim that it increased 70-fold in the intervening time). Most similarly situated people could have re-upped that amount of bitcoin back then, but if you chose not to, it's not like Karpeles forced that choice on you. IMO, being mad about the $50k current value of bitcoin that you lost is overstating the harm he did you signif…

It would also be unfair to assume people would have continued to invest in bitcoin. That's an investment decision, and should not be part of the claim. Imagine if bitcoin had gone to 1/70 instead of 70x, would you still want to be paid back in bitcoins or currency value?

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#35

Post by charlesdm »

unknown_apostle wrote: post #22

Here's what I don't understand: I specifically requested to be repaid in BTC at the time, you could state this on the claims form. I even opened an account on Kraken for this? So why would I not get the full amount in bitcoin?

I'm assuming because the lawyers managing the bankruptcy process tried recovering a certain amount of money in Yen, with the books being handled in Yen. Normal people deal with currency, not Bitcoin. Especially in 2013.

In bankruptcy proceedings, most assets are sold off and the remaining cash is distributed to shareholders and the likes. You're being paid out your Yen amount (just like any other person who had a claim) but converted into Bitcoin (at todays prices, since the Bitcoins are gone / have been liquidated).

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#36

Post by pishpash »

jonnathanson wrote: post #33
oaijdsfoaijsf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBF when he fucked you out of it it was only worth $700 or so (based on another commenter's claim that it increased 70-fold in the intervening time). Most similarly situated people could have re-upped that amount of bitcoin back then, but if you chose not to, it's not like Karpeles forced that choice on you. IMO, being mad about the $50k current value of bitcoin that you lost is overstating the harm he did you signif…

Hypothetical problem... Let's imagine a universe in which milk is a rare commodity, and milkshakes are worth their weight in gold. In this world, right now in 2017, 1 milkshake trades for $100 USD. You have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake. So we each hold the equivalent of $100. I drink your milkshake, effectively stealing $100 from you. Fast forward to the year 2020. Milkshakes are now worth $1,000,000 USD. Have…

Sure, but the appropriate amount, in my mind would have been $100 plus prevailing interest, not some in-kind distribution. Suppose there is only one milkshake in the world and it got destroyed, how would you ever repay the claim except by converting to currency value?

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#37

Post by Tuna-Fish »

unknown_apostle wrote: post #22

Here's what I don't understand: I specifically requested to be repaid in BTC at the time, you could state this on the claims form. I even opened an account on Kraken for this? So why would I not get the full amount in bitcoin?

Because the law does not work that way. Japan values property in yen, and the law states that you must be paid back the value of what you lost at the time you lost it.

This is true in most countries -- in the United States, if the state for any reason seizes your coins without legal reason, and has time to auction them off before you can prove they had no legal reason to take them, you will be paid back in dollar for the value of the coins on the day they were taken. The state does not owe you the potential increase in value between that day and today.

Where it gets interesting is what would happen if the reverse was true. Let's say your coin gets taken without legal reason in an illegal search today, with the price at $100. Two weeks from now, they get auctioned off after the price collapsed to $80. Four months from now, when your lawyer proves to the court that your coins were legally acquired and there was no basis to the seizure, the price is at $1. What does the government owe you?

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#38

Post by pishpash »

bm1362 wrote: post #31
oaijdsfoaijsf wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBF when he fucked you out of it it was only worth $700 or so (based on another commenter's claim that it increased 70-fold in the intervening time). Most similarly situated people could have re-upped that amount of bitcoin back then, but if you chose not to, it's not like Karpeles forced that choice on you. IMO, being mad about the $50k current value of bitcoin that you lost is overstating the harm he did you signif…

I understand this point as well, but imagine you got into earlier and tied up your existing capital in that $700. You wouldn't have been able to capture the next 70x.

You also wouldn't be taking the financial risk that led to the 70x (albeit that is forced on you if $700 is all you had), but nevertheless if you take no risk, you reap no rewards, seems fair.

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#39

Post by tlrobinson »

This begs the question: if I go bankrupt, can I take whatever remaining funds I have to Vegas and gamble it until I come out ahead or lose it all?

The US government was required to sell the Bitcoin they seized from Silk Road. Should individuals/companies in bankruptcy?

Re: Mark Karpeles Will End Up Taking $859M from Mt. Gox Bankruptcy

#40

Post by pishpash »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #37
unknown_apostle wrote: post #22

Here's what I don't understand: I specifically requested to be repaid in BTC at the time, you could state this on the claims form. I even opened an account on Kraken for this? So why would I not get the full amount in bitcoin?

Because the law does not work that way. Japan values property in yen, and the law states that you must be paid back the value of what you lost at the time you lost it. This is true in most countries -- in the United States, if the state for any reason seizes your coins without legal reason, and has time to auction them off before you can prove they had no legal reason to take them, you will be paid back in dollar for…

It would have to be $100 as well. I think that is how it works already.
Post reply on HN