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The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

economist.com

21–30 of 161 posts

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#21
The article makes a valid point. Everyone can not possibly sell all of their Bitcoin, and if they tried, it would be defined as a crash. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t worried about this.

But I think it’s wrong to think of Bitcoin as a commodity, or that it needs some killer application. I really think Bitcoin is best thought of as a currency. Fiat currencies work because as a whole, we agree on its value. Usually, it’s backed by a country’s government, which represents the country’s populace. It’s value is inherently determined by the size of their economy.

Right now, Bitcoin isn’t backed by a government at all, but it’s still backed by people. Those people obviously feel that Bitcoin is worth what it is today. Of course, that can change, just like any currency.

But eventually, Bitcoin will reach a value high enough that more and more people will start accepting it alongside fiat. I mean, go to any border town along the Canada-U.S. border, and they all accept USD and CAD. Clearly, they do that because it’s advantageous to attract customers. That could eventually happen with Bitcoin. Then we’ll stop worrying about Bitcoin’s valuation so much, insofar as we stop worrying about the values of fiat currencies. It matters, but not that much.

When that will happen, and at what value, I have no idea. But until then, I’m hodling.

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#23

Frankly I'm astounded by the vitriol toward Bitcoin on HN. Bitcoin has the potential to actually change the world (unlike most of the BS startups coming out of SV), and yet all these voices on HN poo-pooing Bitcoin appear (to me at least) to outweigh those who are willing to give it a shot. Why is this? Do people fear what they don't understand? Are they mad because they feel like they missed out? Does Bitcoin's succ…

The hubris Bitcoiners carry is completely different. The net started among academic wonks and University faculty pages. Bitcoiners purport to bring down Central banks and subvert the state, delivering a new social order.

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#24
I really love Ethereum and have been invested in it for a while. I think @vbuterin and crew have a clear idea as to how to move past problems, and I find it exciting to watch the Ethereum foundation execute their vision well.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, doesn't perform its simple functions well in the short term, and seems to have very little idea on how to scale long term:

1. Transactions are still pretty expensive and take a good while to settle.

2. Proof of work as a long term consensus strategy just doesn't work. The amount of energy required to mint transactions is immense.

3. Bitcoin hasn't made the headway with corporate partnerships that I think will be critical for larger adoption.

On Ethereum's end: a movement to proof of stake, sharding with global consensus, and the corresponding lightening and whisper networks all are really exciting domains of exploration. My two primary worries here are:

1. There has not been much work yet to bring well designed languages to the EVM at this point. Well designed languages, with good testing frameworks (QuickCheck from the Haskell landscape comes to mind), and formally verified fundamentals (e.g. wallets) are critical for contracts to be viable for anything other than playthings.

2. I worry about regulation totally hammering down innovation in this arena before it can sufficiently get past the rough early days. I do cautiously applaud Russia's hesitance to regulate, in an attempt to avoid destroying innovation.

On (1), I would love to get involved writing adapters for languages or subsets of languages like OCaml or Haskell to compile down to the EVM. If anyone knows of any resources I could jump into to explore this type of project, I would love it if you linked them.

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#25
post #18

Frankly I'm astounded by the vitriol toward Bitcoin on HN. Bitcoin has the potential to actually change the world (unlike most of the BS startups coming out of SV), and yet all these voices on HN poo-pooing Bitcoin appear (to me at least) to outweigh those who are willing to give it a shot. Why is this? Do people fear what they don't understand? Are they mad because they feel like they missed out? Does Bitcoin's succ…

I dont think poopooing bitcoin's speculative bubble has to do with poopooing it as a technology. For its original purpose as a digital currency, USD value should not matter (as long as it doesn't fluctuate too much)

That's similar to the argument that "blockchain good, Bitcoin bad".

Bitcoin is the killer app. Similarly, the internet is great not because of TCP, but because of the information (which is what gives it value).

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#26
I was having a conversation about bitcoin, and I was saying the fact that the price goes up so fast means people cant/wont actually use it as a currency. I think someone bought a pizza with 10k bitcoin? thats now 70 million $. Even in the last year it has moved up so fast, and if people think it will continue to grow 'because of adoption', people cant actually 'adopt' it and use it as a currency, because todays bitcoin is worth a lot less than tomorrows.

then i realized, i was describing deflation.

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not that much vitriol here? Tons of people here own bitcoin and obviously believe in it and tons of people here are skeptical about it. I don't usually see anyone actually "mad" about bitcoin.

Try making a positive comment about Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency, and watch the downvotes come flying in.

Well considering the amount of forums on the net where you can't even mention bitcoin without everyone who holds it swarming you - "Buy the dip", "This is good for bitcoin", etc. - I'd say everyone is pretty aware of the positives behind bitcoin and isn't too interested in hearing them regurgitated from yet another evangelist.

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not that much vitriol here? Tons of people here own bitcoin and obviously believe in it and tons of people here are skeptical about it. I don't usually see anyone actually "mad" about bitcoin.

Try making a positive comment about Bitcoin or any cryptocurrency, and watch the downvotes come flying in.

Bitcoin is good.

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#29
post #4

Famous NYU valuation professor on how to value bitcoin: http://aswathdamodaran.blogspot.com/2017/10/the-bitcoin-boom...

Flawed argument because he doesn't understand the tech.

> The only exception that I can think off is that if it becomes a necessary component of smart contracts, it could take on the role of a commodity; that may be ethereum's saving grace, since it has been marketed less as a currency and more as a smart contracting lubricant.

This applies to bitcoin too, but he doesn't seem to be aware of it. So when he later claims

> You cannot value Bitcoin, you can only price it: This follows from the acceptance that Bitcoin is a currency, not an asset or a commodity. Any one who claims to value Bitcoin either has a very different definition of value than I do or is just making up stuff as he or she goes along.

It's just not true. There is obviously some actual inherent value to being able to do escrow via multisig rather than via mutual complete trust in some third party. You can argue that the value is very low, but obviously there's some inherent value to the system.

Re: The Bitcoin bubble – Greater fool theory

#30

The article makes a valid point. Everyone can not possibly sell all of their Bitcoin, and if they tried, it would be defined as a crash. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t worried about this. But I think it’s wrong to think of Bitcoin as a commodity, or that it needs some killer application. I really think Bitcoin is best thought of as a currency. Fiat currencies work because as a whole, we agree on its value. Usual…

   Fiat currencies work because as a whole, we agree on its value.
This is fuzzy thinking, as it doesn't even make sense to talk about the value of a currency - only it's price. Mixing up concepts like this is what makes a lot of bitcoin and related conversations very muddled.

When you start off your thought with a category error, as you have here, it's hard to get anywhere useful.

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