Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook • Hacker News Board

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#701

Post by libertyEQ » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

smashingfiasco wrote: post #661

threeseed wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be serious. (1) You really think Apple cares about the discussions on one thread of Hacker News ? (2) Even if they did how would it be an effective use of resources. It may shift a handful of people at most. When instead that time could be spent speaking with journalists or writing press releases that could actually shift a lot of people. (3) It's a slippery slope to keep calling everyone you disagree with shills or…

Oh, they definitely do keep tabs and actively participate in places like HN. You must have missed seeing this a few years ago... > Members of Apple PR seek tabloid photos of celebrities holding iPhones, while others read Apple-focused blogs actively, and keep tabs on prominent Apple beat writers using anonymized social media accounts. A former Apple PR employee notes that the team enjoys being an “overall watchdog,”…

I've got numerous concerns about YC, but I really like HN. There is a certain decorum we must not violate or we risk becoming like the mess that is the rest of much of the web right now. We need to focus on the content of the arguments being made, not trying to determine what tribes the others belongs to.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#702

Post by dontreact » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #685

rescripting wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Tax loopholes are like exploits. If they were all enumerated somewhere nicely then we could just patch them up. If you're planning on using exploits, you keep try and them secret. Once they are common knowledge they get patched (hopefully).

What Apple does is exactly what the US Tax code wants them to do, nothing secret about it. If it were to repatriate it's foreign earnings every year, it's tax rate would skyrocket from it's current 24.6% to around 50% (leaving less than 30% for shareholders after dividend taxes).

"Nothing secret about it" This is false. From the NYTimes article https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-jersey.... “For those of you who are not aware Apple are extremely sensitive concerning publicity,” wrote Cameron Adderley, global head of Appleby’s corporate department, in a March 20, 2014 email to other senior partners. “They also expect the work that is being done for them only to be discussed amongst personnel who need to know.”

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#703

Post by dpatru » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

> What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate.

You're like the farmer whose cow has died and is upset that his neighbor's cow has not died. Direct your annoyance at the government that is oppressing you rather than at other people who are not being oppressed as much.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#704

Post by maehwasu » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:38 PM UTC

earthtolazlo wrote: post #111

erickj wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving abroad, I now fully understand the feeling behind "Taxation without representation is tyranny".

You are welcome to give up your American citizenship if that income tax becomes too burdensome for you.

It's quite difficult and time-consuming to acquire an alternate passport, absent family ties or similar.

The US has very strong lock-in with regard to taxes, and they don't hesitate to exploit it.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#705

Post by ben_w » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:43 PM UTC

qznc wrote: post #601

ben_w wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’ll work great if every nation simultaneously agrees to it, but is potentially catastrophic if they don’t: all the tax-dodgers move to your country for tax purposes while continuing to make and sell everything else exactly as before. And if every nation agreed to have identical tax laws, we wouldn’t have a problem with lawful multinational tax minimisation in the first place, because there would be no advantage t…

Sounds good. It forces all countries to unify VAT. It begs the question why it does not happen already?

It forces them to unify everything except VAT (and land tax). Or, and I only realised this just now, do something complicated with imports, customs, and how to handle cross-border sales of digital goods (the EU does this, but it is a mess).

If I had to guess, I’d suggest haven’t already done what you suggest for at least one of these reasons:

1) because it’s economic mutually assured destruction

2) because tax codes are long and complicated (and sometimes deliberately written as political favours), and they’re as afraid of touching it as PayPal are of touching whatever Musk wrote 20 years ago.

3) because businesses that have revenue (Apple, $229bn) comparable to the GDP of the nations whose tax systems they are exploiting (Ireland, $293bn; Luxembourg, $59bn) is novel and governments are slow to adapt.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#706

Post by libertyEQ » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:55 PM UTC

slavik81 wrote: post #700

libertyEQ wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time (e.g. 18th century), it was the best proxy for education. In the age of the internet, we have at least the prospect of learning at our own pace regardless of financial means. This requires an interest in knowledge while minimizing biases.

Sure, but restricting voting to the educated is still restricting voting to the elite. It still doesn't seem compatible with limiting the influence of the elites on the government, which 32hkwejr claimed was their goal.

>restricting voting to the educated is still restricting voting to the elite.

At that time...

Buuuut we now live in the age of the internet, and knowledge is a pure commodity. There are authoritarians looking to muddy the waters and make knowledge more difficult to acquire, but for those interested in learning (like the kids I've worked with), there are plenty of free options I couldn't dream of at the public library I went to as a kid.

We still have an issue of poor education, don't get me wrong, though it is not a result of elitism (quite the contrary).

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#707

Post by pantalaimon » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

unixhero wrote: post #532

Clanan wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fix can certainly involve appealing to morals and human responsibility. A company is, after all, just a group of people. This should be a very strong tactic considering how liberal Silicon Valley is. The major players preach constantly about progressive ideals, yet fail to do more than the minimum when push comes to shove. My business partner and I purposefully pay normal taxes, avoiding accountants' crazy tax re…

That is where you are wrong. A cannot be thought of as a "group of people". A company is a legal entity, which can do absolutely ANYTHING within the law. It, the corporation, will by default do everything in its power to maximize shareholder value and that is it. Beyond that, there's Corporate Social Responsibility, but of course that is downstream from the corporation's main objective, which is to maximize profits.…

You make it sound like cooperatives are a form of an AI running wild.

I'd suggest "The three laws of Robotics" should also apply for them.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#708

Post by fastball » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:59 PM UTC

tankenmate wrote: post #512

fastball wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says it's wrong?

If you truly question the morality of murder then it might not be far wrong to say that you are a sociopath.

If you don't question the morality of everything you haven't looked hard enough.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#709

Post by woolvalley » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 10:00 PM UTC

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Countries do try to compensate for this by introducing specific small business tax rates and special benefits for being locally owned or controlled.

The Canadian example:

"After the general tax reduction, the net tax rate is 15%.

For Canadian-controlled private corporations claiming the small business deduction, the net tax rate is 10.5%."

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/busines...

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#710

Post by explainplease » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 10:14 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #486

explainplease wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally do not believe in objective morality. Then why is murder wrong?

Who says it's wrong?

Most people who aren't murderers, and a few who are. Are you saying that murder is not wrong?

BTW, please don't troll. If you're just asking, "Who says murder is wrong?" to be rhetorical or make a point, don't. Instead, make your point explicitly in the first place, so that we can move forward in the discussion. I'm not interested in playing games, but I am interested in seriously discussing the topic.

So, either you think murder is wrong, or you don't--or you think that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, which boils down to isn't. So which is it?