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Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

wid.world

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Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#201

Post by transreal »

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #192
MR4D wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality. Oddly, that statement (which I completely agree with) has nothing to do with being rich or poor. People in power want to stay in power - whether it's the US or a failing state like Venezuela, they use that power against others. I'd much rather be in a rich but unequal society - it's much more peaceful.

I think the relationship isn't linear. Too much equality and there is no reason to go above and beyond, to innovate or to take risks. To much inequality, and we find the same result. Enough inequality to reward those who do more (with some understanding that there is elements of luck), but not so much inequality that people have to be lucky to succeed, if it is possible at all.

I feel this is similar to a game design issue.

You want a game in which early levels are easy enough that it won't take too much skill to get through. [Basics of society, access to housing, clean water, health care..]

As you get to higher levels, there will be challenges that some players can't get through [amassing enough money to buy a yacht], but that's OK.

Some players have cheat codes not available to other players [laws to help special interests] because they have an in with the game designers [government], and that's OK too as long as it doesn't go too far.

It's not a big deal if the most skilled players can get to really high levels - that's not the issue.

It's when the most skilled players make the game unplayable by the average player that you have a problem.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#202

Post by ivm »

nashashmi wrote: post #34

Ok. So I looked into it and I had my "OHHH!!" moment. It seems income/wealth inequality got magnified because of the number of opportunities went exponentially higher. Those who were able, took advantage of those opportunities if they had education, business acumen, surplus income, liquid wealth, or were fortunate enough to have ownership in an industry that was not valued very highly before and became very valuable…

Yes, there's already a huge gap between people who can take advantage of the progress and those who can't. It wasn't that wide before and it grows with the amount of knowledge necessary to operate in the modern world.

To prevent it from growing even more, we need to fix education systems.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#203

Post by NeoBasilisk »

tuna-piano wrote: post #166
frandroid wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole idea of inequality, while potentially useful, kind of assumes a fixed pie. No. The idea of income inequality assumes that no matter the size of the pie, everyone should have a decent slice of pie that lets them live comfortably. Industrialization was supposed to reduce the amount of hours we work and increase our quality of life. We seemed to have reached a floor at 40/50 hours a week and many many people…

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

Oh my god, I can't believe I just saw an unironic use of the "TVs and refrigerators" argument. Of course it was on HN.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#204

Post by s17n »

tuna-piano wrote: post #128

1. When everyone was a farmer, the difference between the best possible farmer and the worst farmer just wasn't that great. Maybe you're 2x faster at picking corn, or 3x better at hunting deer. But a few guys literally built a communication tool (WhatsApp) to be used by billions of people. So maybe in the old world you could pick 2x as much corn, but in today's world you can build 1 billion times the communication to…

1. True

2. Wealth isn't a fixed pie, but power is (also, real estate).

3. In fact, happiness correlates more strongly with relative income than absolute income.

As an aside, I think that multigenerational wealth is particularly corrosive to society - I would be happy to accept extremely high inequality as long as it couldn't be inherited.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#205

Post by ameister14 »

euyyn wrote: post #163
ameister14 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not because he's rich; it's because he's a famous footballer. People won't know that he's rich if he's not also famous, and they associate him with the club he plays for and the skillset he possesses more than his wealth.

I disagree: You're describing what fans of him will think of his son. But in this kid's day-to-day life after graduating, unless he becomes famous on his own, nobody will know who he is. They'll just see a dude that dresses well, lives in a well-off neighborhood, and got an education like everybody else. He won't have been raised in a violent neighborhood with poor access to education. And no employer will think twic…

That's possible, yes. However if his father is not a football player but instead is a bookkeeper, the education and accent may end pulling him out of the racial association he is in just as easily.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#206

Post by nashashmi »

ivm wrote: post #202
nashashmi wrote: post #34

Ok. So I looked into it and I had my "OHHH!!" moment. It seems income/wealth inequality got magnified because of the number of opportunities went exponentially higher. Those who were able, took advantage of those opportunities if they had education, business acumen, surplus income, liquid wealth, or were fortunate enough to have ownership in an industry that was not valued very highly before and became very valuable…

Yes, there's already a huge gap between people who can take advantage of the progress and those who can't. It wasn't that wide before and it grows with the amount of knowledge necessary to operate in the modern world. To prevent it from growing even more, we need to fix education systems.

:( We also need to fix attitudes, habits, behaviors, etc. Maybe we can get everyone into military formation.

Education is very very demanding. Plus, the more people get educated, the more competition we have, meaning the more intense things become. There needs to be another route.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#207

Post by ivm »

nashashmi wrote: post #206
ivm wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there's already a huge gap between people who can take advantage of the progress and those who can't. It wasn't that wide before and it grows with the amount of knowledge necessary to operate in the modern world. To prevent it from growing even more, we need to fix education systems.

:( We also need to fix attitudes, habits, behaviors, etc. Maybe we can get everyone into military formation. Education is very very demanding. Plus, the more people get educated, the more competition we have, meaning the more intense things become. There needs to be another route.

But a good education system should include not-so-demanding civics and ethics parts which mean attitudes, habits, and behaviors. This will decrease the competitiveness and intensity in the society in the first place.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#208

Post by [deleted] »

transreal wrote: post #201
BearGoesChirp wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the relationship isn't linear. Too much equality and there is no reason to go above and beyond, to innovate or to take risks. To much inequality, and we find the same result. Enough inequality to reward those who do more (with some understanding that there is elements of luck), but not so much inequality that people have to be lucky to succeed, if it is possible at all.

I feel this is similar to a game design issue. You want a game in which early levels are easy enough that it won't take too much skill to get through. [Basics of society, access to housing, clean water, health care..] As you get to higher levels, there will be challenges that some players can't get through [amassing enough money to buy a yacht], but that's OK. Some players have cheat codes not available to other play…

[deleted]

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#209

Post by tuna-piano »

Chinjut wrote: post #170
tuna-piano wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

Yes, poor people today have access to technology which didn't exist hundreds of years ago. What of it? Poor people everywhere in every era under every economic system have access to technology which didn't exist in the past; this is the nature of time. Paupers of the late Neolithic had access to wheels their ancestors could only dream of. The comparison of note isn't between the present and the past, but between the…

Sorry, can’t respond to the whole comment right this moment, but just want to apoligize if i was unclear. I was simply responding to the argument about how people today still work 40 hours, and that for the most part richer people work more than poorer people, which suggests arguments around hours worked aren’t necessarily valid.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#210

Post by tuna-piano »

kermittd wrote: post #188
Chinjut wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, poor people today have access to technology which didn't exist hundreds of years ago. What of it? Poor people everywhere in every era under every economic system have access to technology which didn't exist in the past; this is the nature of time. Paupers of the late Neolithic had access to wheels their ancestors could only dream of. The comparison of note isn't between the present and the past, but between the…

Yep agreed. It also may be possible that the nature of lower paying jobs makes it far more difficult to work extra hours. As "knowledge" workers if you were treated like minimum wage employees how many hours do you actually work? 5 or 6 is usually the answer given on HN. Source: Until early teenage years grew up poor. Still fighting the specter of homelessness now.

The other thing is that in life there’s a trade off between leisure time and work time. The more you get paid, the more likely you are to want to work more. If you only make $7 an hour, your opportunity cost for an hour of TV is $7. If you make $100, your opportunity cost is $100.

If course it isn’t that simple, and there are other effects (google the labor s curve), but that’s the general idea.

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