Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database • Hacker News Board

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#181

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 8:44 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #171

tuna-piano wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

Pointing out that poor people (especially poor ethnic minorities) have cellphones and TVs and that many have trouble finding and holding jobs without doing any further investigation of people’s circumstances or any attempt at empathy is a favorite talking point of race-baiting politicians on the right who want to drum up outrage in support of cutting basic social services and public infrastructure, so they can return…

[deleted]

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#182

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 8:46 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #5

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #3

What does 'Income Equality' look like?

Abolition of class. Democratic control over the means of production.

That sounds very much like "we the people have voted to take your factory". That is, it sounds like the "democratic" in "democratic people's republic".

Fortunately, we have this Constitution that places limits on the amount of democracy we have, partly to keep it from running amuck in exactly that way...

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#183

Post by BearGoesChirp » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 8:52 PM UTC

oconnor663 wrote: post #173

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality. Disney passing lobbying for laws that will keep their work out of public domain despite how much they benefited from public domain. Drug companies lobbying to outlaw certain products that would help people but cut into profits. Enough inequality allows information control. Enough information control allows government control. O…

> Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality. I do agree with you, but I think it's worth nitpicking the examples. Is the Disney case an inequality problem? I'm not sure that it is. Suppose we waved a magic wand, and suddenly all of Disney's employees and shareholders were middle class people. Would that change Disney Inc's incentives around IP lobbying? I think that rat…

>Suppose we waved a magic wand, and suddenly all of Disney's employees and shareholders were middle class people. Would that change Disney Inc's incentives around IP lobbying?

I'm not sure the shareholders are the actual issue, since it is Disney's concentration of wealth that allows it to change the laws (and gives it incentives to do so). It doesn't much matter who owns the wealth, since the chain from owner to actual employees carrying out the actions that change the laws ends up removing most impact of the share holders.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#184

Post by MR4D » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 8:55 PM UTC

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #139

tuna-piano wrote: post #128

1. When everyone was a farmer, the difference between the best possible farmer and the worst farmer just wasn't that great. Maybe you're 2x faster at picking corn, or 3x better at hunting deer. But a few guys literally built a communication tool (WhatsApp) to be used by billions of people. So maybe in the old world you could pick 2x as much corn, but in today's world you can build 1 billion times the communication to…

Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality. Disney passing lobbying for laws that will keep their work out of public domain despite how much they benefited from public domain. Drug companies lobbying to outlaw certain products that would help people but cut into profits. Enough inequality allows information control. Enough information control allows government control. O…

> Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality.

Oddly, that statement (which I completely agree with) has nothing to do with being rich or poor.

People in power want to stay in power - whether it's the US or a failing state like Venezuela, they use that power against others.

I'd much rather be in a rich but unequal society - it's much more peaceful.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#185

Post by IncRnd » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 8:56 PM UTC

meheleventyone wrote: post #127

IncRnd wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "depends on which average"? As far as I know, average is another word for mean, and median is the middle value, unrelated to mean.

I guess I was colloquially referring to the difference we would see depending on whether the mean, median or mode was used. At least from my (British) point of view these are all called an “average” generally speaking. Hopefully the second and third sentences cleared that up as I specifically describe what I meant in terms of the mean and median.

Thank you for the clarification.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#186

Post by smcl » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #171

tuna-piano wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

Pointing out that poor people (especially poor ethnic minorities) have cellphones and TVs and that many have trouble finding and holding jobs without doing any further investigation of people’s circumstances or any attempt at empathy is a favorite talking point of race-baiting politicians on the right who want to drum up outrage in support of cutting basic social services and public infrastructure, so they can return…

This is a well written comment which presents the other side of the inequality with sympathy and humanity. It's a shame that it's being downvoted into obscurity and it's painfully appropriate given how the prevailing mood in the real world seems to be "poor people deserve to be poor". We like to see ourselves as different in the tech community but it seems we're quite more than happy to throw our lot in with the rich and powerful in this regard.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#187

Post by namenotrequired » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:03 PM UTC

MR4D wrote: post #184

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality. Disney passing lobbying for laws that will keep their work out of public domain despite how much they benefited from public domain. Drug companies lobbying to outlaw certain products that would help people but cut into profits. Enough inequality allows information control. Enough information control allows government control. O…

> Part of the problem is that the inequality leads to behavior that protects the inequality. Oddly, that statement (which I completely agree with) has nothing to do with being rich or poor. People in power want to stay in power - whether it's the US or a failing state like Venezuela, they use that power against others. I'd much rather be in a rich but unequal society - it's much more peaceful.

> a rich but unequal society - it's much more peaceful.

That's not true. Violence is caused by inequality. Areas where everyone's equally poor are about as peaceful as areas where everyone's equally rich. It's dramatic inequality that causes violence. This is true no matter whether you look at neighborhood level, city level, national level etc.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#188

Post by kermittd » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:03 PM UTC

Chinjut wrote: post #170

tuna-piano wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

Yes, poor people today have access to technology which didn't exist hundreds of years ago. What of it? Poor people everywhere in every era under every economic system have access to technology which didn't exist in the past; this is the nature of time. Paupers of the late Neolithic had access to wheels their ancestors could only dream of. The comparison of note isn't between the present and the past, but between the…

Yep agreed. It also may be possible that the nature of lower paying jobs makes it far more difficult to work extra hours.

As "knowledge" workers if you were treated like minimum wage employees how many hours do you actually work?

5 or 6 is usually the answer given on HN.

Source: Until early teenage years grew up poor. Still fighting the specter of homelessness now.

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#189

Post by joe_the_user » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

tuna-piano wrote: post #166

frandroid wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole idea of inequality, while potentially useful, kind of assumes a fixed pie. No. The idea of income inequality assumes that no matter the size of the pie, everyone should have a decent slice of pie that lets them live comfortably. Industrialization was supposed to reduce the amount of hours we work and increase our quality of life. We seemed to have reached a floor at 40/50 hours a week and many many people…

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators.

Homelessness has skyrocketed in the US. The poorest here have neither TVs nor refrigerators (except the few their salvaging for the scrap metal value). The homeless generally don't have paid employment (meaning ordinary waged employment) since their appearance keeps them from being hired by most businesses but being homeless is a hellish amount of work.

(edited)

Re: Explore Wealth and Income Inequality in the World Wealth and Income Database

#190

Post by Mz » Wed, Nov 08, 2017, 9:09 PM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #189

tuna-piano wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. I don't dismiss that life is difficult for many, but I also realize that they're working hard for a higher standard of living than is possible in many other times in history and many countries today. And in actuality, the poorest quintile in the USA is the quintile that works the least hours, not the most! Why do the top 20% of Americans work so muc…

And yet even the poorest in the US still have TVs and refrigerators. Homelessness has skyrocketed in the US. The poorest here have neither TVs nor refrigerators (except the few their salvaging for the scrap metal value). The homeless generally don't have paid employment (meaning ordinary waged employment) since their appearance keeps them from being hired by most businesses but being homeless is a hellish amount of w…

The homeless generally don't have paid employment

I would be interested in seeing your stats. I worked while homeless. I did freelance writing and, later, resume writing. I have known homeless individuals with regular jobs.

I don't know what the statistics are. But I would be very interested in seeing stats on how many/what percent of homeless have some kind of earned income, if you know of any reliable data on the topic.

(Edit: Or maybe clarify your intent. I had earned income, though no job. We could quibble at length about what constitutes earned income. For example, does recycling for money constitute earned income?)

Thanks.