Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 817 posts

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#181

Post by fauigerzigerk »

I fear that Mr. Krach does not understand corporation tax.

Comparing profits from sales in a particular country to corporation tax paid in that country by a foreign company makes absolutely no sense.

Apple's tax avoidance schemes are in place to avoid US taxes, not German taxes or taxes elsewhere in the world outside the US.

I think Mr. Krach is right that global corporations do not pay their fair share towards global infrastructure and education. But the reason for that is not tax avoidance. The reason is that corporation tax, as it is structured today, is unfit for porpose in a globalised economy.

Corporation tax is based on the assumption that companies primarily use the public infrastructure of the country where they are incorporated. But for global corporations this assumption is incorrect.

So Mr. Krach is barking up the wrong tree, unless his main concern is US tax take. He should call on politicians to change the way in which global corporations are taxed.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#182

Post by nhaehnle »

[deleted] wrote: post #97
sschueller wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same goes for US individuals living abroad not having any business relations or even holdings in the US. Yet they are required to file and pay US taxes in addition to local taxes.

[deleted]

That would indeed be fair. I think what many people here may be forgetting is that this doesn't result in double taxation in practice, because you can deduct the taxes paid in your country of residence from the taxes due in your country of citizenship.

The only possible downside is the implied bureaucracy. Not all countries are good at minimizing that.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#183

Post by zeep »

speedplane wrote: post #12
jarym wrote: post #5

"Such “tax optimization” – albeit legal – is only possible because specialized law firms such as Appleby devise complex company structures inaccessible to most other firms" Maybe governments should simplify their own tax rules. Then you wouldn't need specialised law firms and simpler tax systems are harder to bypass. To add, there is nothing 'moral' about tax - you have no choice but to pay what you're legally obliga…

In these situations they always say, "everything we did was legal". But the problem is that powerful individuals and companies get to make the rules. They have lobbying power and a legal budget that allows them to influence the rules themselves. They get to decide what is legal, and use the legality as a shield.

"Everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was Legal"

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#184

Post by cm2187 »

eru wrote: post #167
cm2187 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All they are doing is arbitraging loopholes in the tax systems. Politicians have been trying to solve way too many problems by taxes (taxing differently x and y) or giving tax gifts to donors and various organised interests. As a result it creates an arbitrage-able tax system. I wouldn't point your annoyance to those who are optimising their taxes (after all this is merely their fiduciary duties to their share holder…

A flat tax on income would help, but it's still a tax on income, and so you can move that around with clever transfer pricing etc. Land value tax works even better: it's physically impossible to move or hide land.

Flat tax is not just about removing thresholds, but also using the same tax rate across the board. If you tax in the same way income, capital gains or corporate profits, don't give a tax exemption for debt, don't charge a stamp duty on property (or charge the same rate on the purchase of all assets, property or not), etc, then you kill all these tax schemes.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#185

Post by jaymzcampbell »

snappyTertle wrote: post #83

I don't get why people think paying more taxes is "moral". There are a lot of things the government spends on that I don't agree with...and I'm sure I'm not alone on this.

I would be happy if we were paying taxes on a level playing field - but we're not. That is the "moral" part of it for me. How that money is spent is another argument.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#186

Post by Maarten88 »

mtrn wrote: post #116
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

Playing devils advocate here: > What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. How about a startup providing "tax-optimization" for the masses? Keep a cut of the money saved: win-win. Or win-win-lose, if you include the state.

You do have to make a profit and pay corporation tax in order to be able to "optimize" it...

Most startups I know do not, and they benefit (in the future, or via transfer to shareholders) from the inverse taxation on losses.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#187

Post by Swinx43 »

jaymzcampbell wrote: post #150
Swinx43 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I appreciate the sentiment it is time to start taking a more global look at these antics of companies. I run my own company in the UK and I know for a fact that apple makes a massive amount of money selling in this country. Now as a small business owner I am taxed at 20% on corporate profit. (19% going forward now due to a tax cut in corporate rates introduced during the last financial year). You then also get…

I have been having the exact same argument with a friend on Facebook (I know, I know)... There is something about this whole thing that people seem to rationalize. My friend's ultimate argument was "well they pay more tax than I will in my lifetime anyway so what's the big deal". I had to give up in the end.

It is honestly a really tough point to argue with people. It becomes even worse when the person you are arguing with is in the fortunate position of having a good income and no current true worries. I used to be one of those people that believed that tax is theft until I have seen how quickly your situation can change due to unforeseen circumstance. A close family member got a terminal medical diagnosis and was the main source of income for the family. The person lived an exceptionally healthy life and got diagnosed with a condition for which they exhibited none of the normal risk factors.

At that point where your survivor biased gets challenged by real hard hitting life events your illusions are shattered. I never wish anyone to experience the same, but I do wish more people can be made to realise that paying tax to look after those services that look after us all when life goes horribly wrong is actually worth it! (And that includes the corporations that benefit from having a fit and healthy workforce and consumer base)

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#188

Post by loceng »

styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

These companies evading taxes are responsible for increased hardship and suffering of a society as well, leeching off of the nations they exist in, and being able to outcompete the honest organizations and people in them. The damages are far greater than the tax avoided. "They are doing it too" isn't a valid excuse either.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#189

Post by dx034 »

mtremsal wrote: post #143
adventured wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That free parking increased Ireland's economy by nearly six fold in a mere 25 years. It took Ireland from a second tier economy, to a first tier economic power ($300b in GDP with a mere 4.7m people). From sub $15,000 GDP per capita in 1993, to surpassing the US in GDP per capita at $62,000. You can tell it's the large foreign corporations causing it, because of the big gap between the growth in domestic income and th…

GDP per capita doesn't seem like the best metric to track the growth of "Ireland's Economy" if it doesn't translate into more jobs/taxes/etc. though. Would you happen to know whether these development incentives have actually befitted the Irish people?

Go to Dublin and you'll see that these are not just postboxes. Most of those companies have a significant amount of employees in Ireland. They also pay taxes to the Irish state (albeit at a low rate) which is used to further develop the country.

Not a fan of what the Irish government did but it clearly helped Ireland to become what they are now.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#190

Post by seqastian »

adventured wrote: post #88
almostarockstar wrote: post #60

As an Irish citizen, I feel embarrassed by the way we have dealt with Apple (and other behemoth corps). We simultaneously gave these organisations "free parking" and a "get out of jail free card". I don't blame Apple for taking advantage though. I would.

That free parking increased Ireland's economy by nearly six fold in a mere 25 years. It took Ireland from a second tier economy, to a first tier economic power ($300b in GDP with a mere 4.7m people). From sub $15,000 GDP per capita in 1993, to surpassing the US in GDP per capita at $62,000. You can tell it's the large foreign corporations causing it, because of the big gap between the growth in domestic income and th…

jobs go away -> expeds go away.
Post reply on HN