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Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

nytimes.com

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Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#281

Post by forapurpose »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #176
forapurpose wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [Russia is] a capitalist society so their interests are mostly aligned with capitalist societies elsewhere. Clearly their interests are not aligned with most capitalist societies, including the ones in Europe, East Asia, and the U.S. Russia overtly calls these nations their enemies, those nations see Russia as a threat, and Russia regularly threatens them militarily and interferes in their domestic politics at an e…

Which countries in East Asia are you referring to? As for the EU, the 'enemy' status is over a battle for control of Ukraine, and the trade sanctions that happened as a result of Russian invading Ukraine to stop Ukraine becoming a member of the EU. More detail about trade sanctions: https://europa.eu/newsroom/highlights/special-coverage/eu-sa... The US has also imposed trade sanctions for similar reasons: https://www…

> As for the EU, the 'enemy' status is over a battle for control of Ukraine

Ukraine is a continuation of and part of a much larger struggle. Russia is interfering in European countries' elections and domestic politics; they also annexed, unofficially, part of Georgia; they are pushing countries to abandon or not join the EU; they are working against European countries in other regions, including in the Mideast; they are trying to divide NATO by building an alliance with Turkey ...

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#282

Post by forapurpose »

omarforgotpwd wrote: post #159
forapurpose wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ultimately they are trying to create a plan to secure the future of real people I think you have a point in general, but let's not take the proclamations at face value. > The Saudis haven’t tended to try and influence their investments, they are mostly a silent investor so far Do we know this somehow? Beyond a doubt, if they have power they will use it.

> Do we know this somehow? Beyond a doubt, if they have power they will use it. I remember reading this somewhere, but I can't find a source. It is conceivable they may choose to be more "activist" with their holdings in the future, but thus far I can't think of any examples of them using their holdings to exert influence over the company's they invested in. Certainly they must be cognizant of the fact that doing so…

> I can't think of any examples of them using their holdings to exert influence over the company's they invested in

How would you know? Such things are rarely disclosed; both parties prefer to keep them confidential.

> they must be cognizant of the fact that doing so at this time would make most companies reluctant to accept their investment

Many companies make deals like that all the time. Look at the influence of China in Hollywood:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15641483

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#283

Post by remarkEon »

conanbatt wrote: post #261
remarkEon wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's naive to think that taking money from oppressive regimes has no other effect than depleting their cash reserves. Google and Facebook seem to have no qualms about acquiescing to Chinese censorship demands. I think it's folly to think Saudi money won't or doesn't have at least some nefarious influence somewhere . It's worth at least taking a look.

Its worth 'taking a look', sure, but its definitely been the other way around. The article itself reminds us of how Twitter was important during the Arab Spring. Wouldn't that Saudi money have been instrumental in the opposite of what the article points at?

It is not “definitely” the other way around. Quite the contrary.

The Arab Spring began in 2010 and lasted several years. The (first) Saudi investment in Twitter didn’t happen until December of 2011, and by then much of the region was already on fire. In fact, it’s notable that after the $300M investment, the following summer is when Syria devolved into total Civil War - with February being when Assad invaded Homs.

So, no, I’m still skeptical that we should be allowing this. Given the regional alignment of the Saudis, seeing Syria (an Iranian ally) devolve into chaos wouldn’t have been something they’d exactly move mountains to stop.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#284

Post by conanbatt »

remarkEon wrote: post #283
conanbatt wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worth 'taking a look', sure, but its definitely been the other way around. The article itself reminds us of how Twitter was important during the Arab Spring. Wouldn't that Saudi money have been instrumental in the opposite of what the article points at?

It is not “definitely” the other way around. Quite the contrary. The Arab Spring began in 2010 and lasted several years. The (first) Saudi investment in Twitter didn’t happen until December of 2011, and by then much of the region was already on fire. In fact, it’s notable that after the $300M investment, the following summer is when Syria devolved into total Civil War - with February being when Assad invaded Homs. So…

"I’m still skeptical that we should be allowing this."

Who is we. It's a very different thing to say that there is an ideological compromise or hipocrisy, to State enforced commercial blockades.

And the dire situation of syria doesn't have anything to do with Tweeter. Its as relatable as saying that we should ban dates because they come from the middle east, funding terrible wars.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#285

Post by wallace_f »

d10r wrote: post #277
wallace_f wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that even if you have benevolent leaders in charge of the major players in a market, all it does is create opportunity for some immoral actor to enter the market to realize the profit opportunity. I can't think of an example that a modern corporation has done something against their benefit for purely for moral reasons. This is the responsibility of effective government regulation and consumer choice.…

Well, then maybe something's wrong with the very concept of "modern corporation" itself.

I don't know of a better idea than a system of checks and balances between gov, private corporations, and the people.

The thing is each of those serves useful functions so it would be harmful to eliminate or neuter any one of them.

So it seems clear to me there is a lot of value in a division in power between all three. But the trend has been towards more government power, and to more private capital in fewer hands.

I'm sure there is a better way than having this framework, I just don't know if anyone has come up with it yet.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#286

Post by jamesrcole »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #279
jamesrcole wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if it's the least evil of all the available options? That doesn't itself make it "good" but that does make it the best option available.

Of course. PeachPlum was asserting that it does make it good, though.

What I was trying to get at is that if something is literally the best option available then there's not much point complaining about it.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#287

Post by sreenadh »

brighteyes wrote: post #41

There is something to this argument, but it's ruined. The author and many others don't like Saudi Arabia and Russia. That's the main reason for advocating a boycott of their investment money, because while the author mentions the poor human rights records of those two countries as the reason, there are plenty of other countries with such records. The main example of which is China, which is of course not mentioned. T…

I think a better way of putting is that the founders of these startups will cringe to share a public stage or at the very mention of one of the mentioned groups but will happily take their money.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#288

Post by notheguyouthink »

devdad wrote: post #272
notheguyouthink wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So you are saying you don't have any use for the idea of morality. To a degree I agree with this statement though. Morality in politics and corporations seems to be purely a tool for those without morality. That is to say, "X would never do that, why do we need laws for it?" As far as I'm concerned, morality is for a person, unique and without power. If any (meaningful, I guess) power is obtained, such as in compan…

The checks and balances are constructed from ideas about ethics. You can not have one without the other.

Of course - but why would we trust politicians to have the ethics/morality to construct their own checks and balances?

My point is that politicians cannot be relied upon to have morality. Checks and balances are needed to ensure even those without morals adhere to some sane laws.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#289

Post by kakarot »

musage wrote: post #254
kakarot wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. You act like it's a hard question to answer. If my wife hates me for not taking blood money, I have failed to find a compatible life partner. If my children hate me for it, I have failed to educate them about morality. Whatever kind of ill will falls my way as a result of sticking to my guns and valuing the herd over the individual, I will take it with a smile. Because I can sleep at night knowing that I didn't…

I love all you write. I'm this close to pretending to disagree just to make you argue more :) > If I had a friend and loved him because of the benefits which this brought me and because of getting my own way, then it would not be my friend that I loved but myself. I should love my friend on account of his own goodness and virtues and account of all that he is in himself. Only if I love my friend in this way do I love…

Thank you for your kind words. To me that is a compliment of the highest order.

I will read the Mark Twain story you referenced in the other post tonight, and will share my thoughts with you on it later.

It seems we both see the forest for the trees with this issue, and I appreciate the quotes you've left me. They've given me something to chew on.

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