Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why • Hacker News Board

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#251

Post by ataturk » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 1:27 PM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #75

harryh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same answer: simple avarice. There is a lot of Saudi money and they are willing to invest it. And their money is just as good for hiring programmers and renting servers as anyone else's.

A very good explanation of why capitalism is an imoral system. Anyone who can't understand this simple fact is just losing their times. The shadier your scheme for making money, the further away you get (as long as you don't go to jail) because that's the whole nature of the beast.

I disagree. Capitalism is the only system that gave the regular man any sort of upward mobility. Perfect? No. But looking at the other economic systems around the world, we can see without any doubt which one elevated regular people on a very consistent basis.

I'm not a fan of crony-capitalism, on the other hand. The system whereby companies purchase favorable outcomes via lobbying and sweetheart contract deals. But that's not capitalism, that is corruption.

Plus, a lot of people on HN worship Elon Musk and it is arguable that he is the king of the very kind of money making scheming that you find immoral, whatever that means.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#252

Post by musage » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 1:33 PM UTC

kakarot wrote: post #168

doktrin wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not much to gain from spinning pedantic hypotheticals around the word "never" "But what if you were hanging from a cliff and only a job offer from Pol Pot could save you.. " Because that's not missing the point at all.

It's hard for people to understand it, and this is not the first time I've been accused of lying about this very thing... But when I say never, I mean it. My principle on this matter is more important than any emotion I may have. Some people feel like it's ok to be selfish as long as they don't directly see the results of their selfishness. Yet imagine if every time you went to pick up your check, you were forced to…

Yeah. Mark Twain's story (warprayer.org) comes to mind.

People love to argue for the abuser. Any argument you can make for "having" to, say, become an SS officer to feed your family, is outweighed by the much more justifiable need to kill that SS officer to protect many more lives.

The people who are on the receiving end of stuff like this usually don't get to post on HN, and to signal obedience towards their murderers, while giving no real thought to those they murder, well... as Ilse Aichinger said, to forget the dead is to murder them again.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#253

Post by fnl » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 1:36 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #173

fnl wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is that economic cooperation makes "evil" countries become more like the "good" countries they cooperate with. I don't think that holds true. Just take China and Russia, who have very strong economic ties with almost all of the world. Human rights in Russia certainly are not getting any better, and I doubt they are in China. In fact, taking recent relevations into account, those ties might just as muc…

While these countries are definitely more oppressive and have less human rights than much of the Western world, do you really think that they've haven't gotten better in that regard with greater connections to the West? I don't think many would agree that these countries had better human rights and living conditions a couple decades ago. As others have pointed out international pressure was instrumental in dismantlin…

As said, with Putin, I think things have only gotten worse. And China seems to be settling on a benevolent dictator, too, these days. So at least recently, I don't think things are getting any better in those two countries.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#254

Post by musage » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 1:40 PM UTC

kakarot wrote: post #167

wsc981 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would never knowingly take blood money from a dictator, even if it meant I lived an impoverished life. Even if you would need this money to keep your own wife and children alive?

Yes. You act like it's a hard question to answer. If my wife hates me for not taking blood money, I have failed to find a compatible life partner. If my children hate me for it, I have failed to educate them about morality. Whatever kind of ill will falls my way as a result of sticking to my guns and valuing the herd over the individual, I will take it with a smile. Because I can sleep at night knowing that I didn't…

I love all you write. I'm this close to pretending to disagree just to make you argue more :)

> If I had a friend and loved him because of the benefits which this brought me and because of getting my own way, then it would not be my friend that I loved but myself. I should love my friend on account of his own goodness and virtues and account of all that he is in himself. Only if I love my friend in this way do I love him properly.

-- Meister Eckhart

> If a person loves only one other person and is indifferent to all others, his love is not love but a symbiotic attachment, or an enlarged egotism. Yet most people believe that love is constituted by the object, not by the faculty. In fact, they even believe that it is proof of the intensity of their love when they do not love anybody except the "loved" person. [..] Because one does not see that love is an activity, a power of the soul, one believes that all that is necessary to find is the right object - and that everything goes by itself afterward. This attitude can be compared to that of the man who wants to paint but who, instead of learning the art, claims that he just has to wait for the right object - and that he will paint beautifully when he finds it.

-- Erich Fromm, "The Art of Loving" (1956)

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#255

Post by musage » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 1:45 PM UTC

PeachPlum wrote: post #190

coliveira wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very good explanation of why capitalism is an imoral system. Anyone who can't understand this simple fact is just losing their times. The shadier your scheme for making money, the further away you get (as long as you don't go to jail) because that's the whole nature of the beast.

amoral, not immoral but even then I disagree, just look at the life expectancy of the billions of people under capitalism. Milton Friedman - Is Capitalism Humane? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHPI1emZFVg

Objects are amoral. When humans create structures in which they align themselves with immoral incentives, they're being immoral. The failure to be good is being evil in my books; there is no neutrality and there is no mediocrity, there is doing your part or guilt.

And no, nobody is 100% innocent and nobody is 100% guilty. Nobody made themselves out of nothing. Everybody started out as a helpless baby and the range of experiences one can get exposed to before even being able to attempt defend oneself is vast. But so what if every abuser got abused in some way or another, or was withheld some crucial things needed for development? Then don't hate them, but absolutely stop them.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#256

Post by notheguyouthink » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 1:46 PM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #180

hedonistbot wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but none of us gets a free pass from morality, not even in business What? That's news to me. What about the entire defence industry? What about all the politicians that take a cushy job in the companies they helped during their time in office and who can be directly held accountable by the electorate? And why should anyone question the Saudis when they just signed a multi billion dollar weapon deal with the US gove…

So you are saying you don't have any use for the idea of morality. Luckily most people don't think that way and think being good is a desirable trait.

> So you are saying you don't have any use for the idea of morality.

To a degree I agree with this statement though. Morality in politics and corporations seems to be purely a tool for those without morality. That is to say, "X would never do that, why do we need laws for it?"

As far as I'm concerned, morality is for a person, unique and without power. If any (meaningful, I guess) power is obtained, such as in companies and politicians, checks and balances need to be in place to prevent abuse, corruption, etc.

We seriously need vast and in depth auditing in politics, because morality is long failed the world.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#257

Post by kakarot » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 1:52 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #250

kakarot wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a small startup which has taken no such money. My career is aligned with my ethical principles.

I really doubt it, not your virtue signaling but the fact that you think your money is even remotely clean. Did you take money from a VC? Heck did you take money from a Bank? Would you surprise you to know that virtually every bank actively launders money for drug lords, terrorists and every other sort of undesirables? Money by definition isn’t clean, Saudi Arabia, UAE and the likes have one of the largest investment…

We have not taken VC money at this time.

Do you think I'm an idiot? I know that basically half the things I own are at the expense of others, like my nice monitors and other electronics. However, this is a huge step away from taking money from dictatorships and slave traders. Let's be sure we are both talking about the same thing here. I hope to one day apply the skills I have gained at the expense of others to better the lives of the less fortunate to a much greater extent than I have harmed them. It is my ethical duty to do so.

I'm not some confused idealist and I don't appreciate your condescending attitude. I do not personally have a bank account. It is unavoidable that my company has a bank account, and the fact that the money is dirty is a separate issue and needs to be addressed. On the other hand, it isn't unavoidable to turn down investments from bad characters. In the event that my company would knowingly accept such money, I would leave. So I don't understand your point.

You're not the first person to try this angle, and honestly others have made a better argument than you. Stop playing devil's advocate, and let's talk about the reality we actually live in.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#258

Post by diogenescynic » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 2:04 PM UTC

SubiculumCode wrote: post #20

diogenescynic wrote: post #7

Same reason they invest in Fox News—aim the weapon at your enemy, like Iran. It’s no coincidence the media is always screaming about Iran, who is actually more moderate than our supposed ally Saudi Arabia. It’s a way to buy themselves a free pass from criticism.

Iran may be moderate, but they are also aligned with Russia. I'd like Iran to align with the West, but too many sides are in their trenches.

So are the Saudis: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-saudi-terror/russi...

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#259

Post by diogenescynic » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 2:05 PM UTC

l33tbro wrote: post #16

diogenescynic wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it isn’t nefarious, maybe we still shouldn’t let them profit off our liberal democracy while they exploit their own citizens, enslave foreigners, fund terrorism, and abuse women. Maybe we shouldn’t let them have their cake and eat it too. Make them pick between human rights and investing in the S&P500.

Well if you want to talk sanctions, I'd say selling them $110 billion in weapons a few months back is slightly more concerning than slamming shut the bank counter screens on them.

Yep, I’m against that as well.

Re: Saudi Money Fuels the Tech Industry. It’s Time to Ask Why

#260

Post by conanbatt » Tue, Nov 07, 2017, 2:54 PM UTC

Boothroid wrote: post #222

conanbatt wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the reasoning to be against it. If your goal is "global liberation", taking money from oppressive regimes its a pretty darn fast way to do it. You make the oppressors pay for the future liberation. We should applaud if thats whats happening.

More likely you make yourself a slave to that regime.

Slave to the regime? Really? Is that what you get from using twitter, facebook and lyft? Its a Saudi conservative paradise?